Timegrapher assessments "pre op" (before disassembly)

[DrHWO]

Until now, my use of the timegrapher was to quantify how badly I had done (or how worn out the movement was) post op. The time has come for me to operate on a watch that actually works. I've learned the hard way that microscopic examination of every single part during the process of disassembly is vital. My question is "Is there any merit from a diagnostic point of view in doing a pre op multi position time grapher assessment?" If so, is there any authoritative source that would guide me? If not, simply point and laugh!

[Waggy]

It's a great idea to do a pre and post timegrapher footprint, then you will know how well you did - any improvement is an improvement and the watch is better than when you found it... if its the same or worse then ermmmmm.......... you didn't do such a great job. To be honest its more about the differential in the readings than the absolute number that counts. An absolute number sounds like a good idea and for a watch right out of the factory this makes sense. But a 40 year old watch that has had a hard life, you can't expect to hit those numbers again so the absolute quoted values are essentially meaningless. All you can do is get as good a difference as possible, as my mechanics teacher used to say "perfection is expensive to approach and impossible to achieve".

[mikepilk]

Yes! Depending on how well it is running, it might give a clue to any problems. 

[DrHWO]

58 minutes ago, Waggy said:

It's a great idea to do a pre and post timegrapher footprint...........

So, comparisons as opposed to absolutes. I can see that. I imagine the related question is - are there any patterns of abnormality which might point in a particular diagnostic direction? We might do a chest X-ray and an ECG to help assess an individual's respiratory and cardiovascular systems prior to letting the sturgeons loose (more familiar territory for me!)

[tomh207]

There are several uploads here for the witschi training materials which outline timegrapher anomalous traces and the likely causes, I would search for them and they should give you a good start on initial assessment.

 

Tom

[Nucejoe]

 At low amplitude machine's print out is invalid anyway, so if you get good amplitude, then yes definately good practice to make a habbit of. 

I guess in your profession any amplitude is good news.

Rgds

[mikepilk]

18 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

There are several uploads here for the witschi training materials which outline timegrapher anomalous traces and the likely causes, I would search for them and they should give you a good start on initial assessment.

Witschi Training Course.pdf

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, DrHWO said:

My question is "Is there any merit from a diagnostic point of view in doing a pre op multi position time grapher assessment?" If so, is there any authoritative source that would guide me?

I always like to do a preassessment on the timing machine of all incoming watches at work. That is providing they can run. Sometimes the balance staff is broken like a watch I had earlier. So I'll replace the balance staff then verify the watch can run before I go ahead and clean the thing. I don't want to have a clean watch that has a major timing issue because then the balance wheel may come in and out enough times it basically F to start over for cleaning a lubrication.

If the watches really sticky and doesn't want to run at all you can insert your tweezers into the hairspring rinse closed and it will pick up the hairspring rinse and you can drop that on the watch. Usually I can free up things enough that I can do some sort of assessments. Otherwise I just don't worry about it go ahead quickly that and hope for the best which doesn't always work out as vintage pocket watches can have lots of issues as lots of people of played with them.

53 minutes ago, DrHWO said:

are there any patterns of abnormality which might point in a particular diagnostic direction?

so what you're really asking is you'd like to have diagnostic information for timing machine results? It's already been discussed before somewhere but I'll attach a PDF. Then a link to a timing machine with a really good users manual. This was written at the time when the watchmaker didn't know what a timing machine was so it explains a lot of things

http://www.historictimekeepers.com/documents/Micromat.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DrHWO]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

I guess in your profession any amplitude is good news.

 Absolutely. Pre dead is way better than dead. Clearly I'm horologically a dumb ass. I never thought to look for user manuals (sadly my Chinese box came with one instruction involving the on and off button).

50 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you'd like to have diagnostic information for timing machine results.....

Yes. Apologies if this has been beaten to death elsewhere. I'm still finding my way around!

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Depending on how well it is running, it might give a clue to any problems. 

Thats a nice description of how the sounds are generated and some examples of how the traces can be abnormal (and possible cause). Thats exactly what I needed. Thank you!

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

watchmaker didn't know what a timing machine was............

Man, thats one thorough document. Some light reading for my arteriosclerotic brain to decipher!

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Apologies if this has been beaten to death elsewhere

no need to apologize as it's sometimes hard to find things on the message board.

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Man, thats one thorough document. Some light reading for my arteriosclerotic brain to decipher!

yes a timing machine manuals over time are interesting. The usually have the this is this kinda sheets they don't always explain what they mean though in detail. The Greiner manuals tend to be one of the best as a really go into detail. Some others actually published a book and someone around here but I can never figure out what I did with it I have a reprint of a bunch of manuals including one that I'm convinced somebody was on drugs because their interpretation of the waveforms is quite interesting.