Vintage pocket watch repair

[MJD]

Hi everyone

I have a gold pocket watch that belonged to my grandfather. It's about 100 years old and stopped working about 10 years ago. I took it to a local watchmaker and after he'd had it for several weeks he said it would cost £400 to investigate and repair.

Well I'm not paying that and although I doubt it's something I can do myself I thought I would have an initial look at it. I have many years of experience building and repairing miniature electronic assemblies and I have a good set of tools and a digital magnifier. A friend lent me an old copy of "Practical Watch Repairing" by Donald de Carle which is very helpful.

I removed the plate covering the back of the movement and the first thing I'm trying to do is let down the mainspring, which is fully wound, but I can't see how to do it. The barrel has a hole in it but I can't see how this helps. Pictures attached.

So my first question for the forum is - how do I do it?

Thanks!

Mike

 

[RichardHarris123]

Hello and welcome. 

I wish you had asked for advice before starting, the movement wanted removing from the case before removing the plate. I can't see the click, it should be visible once the movement is removed.  If you open the other side of the case, the movement should come out.  Send more pictures then.  You have chosen a difficult movement to start on as it is a full plate. 

[watchweasol]

Hi as Richard said ask for advise first,,!.   You will hopfully be lucky that the movement was in a rundown state before you removed the plate as that’s where the click usually is. My advise is to refit the plate carefully not breaking the pivots and then remove the movement complete from the case. The clock on yours might be on the front plate but turning the movement out will displace the barrel if you don’t have the plate ON. Once you have the plate on and the movement out of the case you can start, let down the power ( if any left) remove the balance after checking that is spins in both directions with a puff of air.   Removing plates as you have done could suddenly release the mainspring resulting in major damage,  teeth off the wheels,  broken pivots, the spring it’s self breaking, so if not sure please ask.

[Nucejoe]

Do you have a protective goggle? 

[MJD]

Thanks both, I will do as you advise although it will be a week or so before I can get back on to it.

The main reason I removed the plate was because my five year old grandson wanted to see how watches worked and it's the only clockwork one I have ... .

Mike

 

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Do you have a protective goggle? 

Yes I do.

I have replaced the plate and will ask for advice before proceeding any further.

Thanks again.

Mike

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, MJD said:

It's about 100 years old and stopped working about 10 years ago. I took it to a local watchmaker and after he'd had it for several weeks he said it would cost £400 to investigate and repair.

9 hours ago, MJD said:

I have many years of experience building and repairing miniature electronic assemblies

out of curiosity when you're building and repairing your electronic things do you charge for the service? Then if you repairing something that was 100 years old would you charge the same price versus something modern? The problem with vintage is it's hard to get replacement components. It is also hard to find somebody who can actually do vintage because that is a specialty in watch repair.

9 hours ago, MJD said:

Well I'm not paying that and although I doubt it's something I can do myself I thought I would have an initial look at it. I have many years of experience building and repairing miniature electronic assemblies and I have a good set of tools and a digital magnifier. A friend lent me an old copy of "Practical Watch Repairing" by Donald de Carle which is very helpful.

the problem with working with miniature electronics is it doesn't have the fun that working on high voltage electronics does. in other words you need to follow a procedure or it will be very unpleasant if you accidentally discharged something through your body for instance. Watch repair has similar procedures like disassembling you should remove the power and typically you would disassemble after you took the movement out of the case.

9 hours ago, MJD said:

and stopped working about 10 years ago

unfortunately it's hard to evaluate a watch that's partially disassembled. Uh-oh and typically if you take partially disassembled watches to watchmakers they should charge a heck of a lot more because they have no idea what they're dealing with. So you're now the watchmaker congratulations and you have a book and this helpful website.

9 hours ago, MJD said:

I have a gold pocket watch that belonged to my grandfather

important lessons to learn would be when not to repair a watch. For instance does this watch have any sentimental value to anyone in the universe and will they be unhappy if it never runs ever again? Usually we discourage working on family pieces. But sometimes we don't because it does make for a good lesson of well kinda like the lesson of which end of the soldering iron should I grab. in other words you're not paying attention to reach over for the and you grab the wrong end.

everyone will have a little different procedure for your particular situation. to reassemble the watch in the case is going to be very undesirable. basically after assembling the plate you would want the movement out of the case and the balance of the pallet fork out to make it a lot easier. So let's start with the basics of getting movement out of the case. You should build a remove the front part of the case is holding the crystal and it looks like you're chasing screws or outs the movement should push out? Hard to tell with where the crown is I don't think it's Columbian issue can't really see the keyless mechanism from your photograph.

 

[Nucejoe]

The only concern at this point,  is your eye's safety.

Rgds

 

 

 

[MJD]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity when you're building and repairing your electronic things do you charge for the service? Then if you repairing something that was 100 years old would you charge the same price versus something modern? The problem with vintage is it's hard to get replacement components. It is also hard to find somebody who can actually do vintage because that is a specialty in watch repair.

the problem with working with miniature electronics is it doesn't have the fun that working on high voltage electronics does. in other words you need to follow a procedure or it will be very unpleasant if you accidentally discharged something through your body for instance. Watch repair has similar procedures like disassembling you should remove the power and typically you would disassemble after you took the movement out of the case.

unfortunately it's hard to evaluate a watch that's partially disassembled. Uh-oh and typically if you take partially disassembled watches to watchmakers they should charge a heck of a lot more because they have no idea what they're dealing with. So you're now the watchmaker congratulations and you have a book and this helpful website.

important lessons to learn would be when not to repair a watch. For instance does this watch have any sentimental value to anyone in the universe and will they be unhappy if it never runs ever again? Usually we discourage working on family pieces. But sometimes we don't because it does make for a good lesson of well kinda like the lesson of which end of the soldering iron should I grab. in other words you're not paying attention to reach over for the and you grab the wrong end.

everyone will have a little different procedure for your particular situation. to reassemble the watch in the case is going to be very undesirable. basically after assembling the plate you would want the movement out of the case and the balance of the pallet fork out to make it a lot easier. So let's start with the basics of getting movement out of the case. You should build a remove the front part of the case is holding the crystal and it looks like you're chasing screws or outs the movement should push out? Hard to tell with where the crown is I don't think it's Columbian issue can't really see the keyless mechanism from your photograph.

 

Thanks John, all points noted (and for the other poster yes I do wear eye protection). Yes I've worked on HV equipment too (such as repairing oscilloscopes). I've never grabbed the wrong end of a soldering iron because my physics treacher at school did that and I learnt from him .

The watch has no real sentimental value in that I'm the only family member with any interest in it and it matters not to me whether it runs or not. I have no problem paying an expert to carry out the work and I understand that such skills don't come cheap but £400 was far more than the watch is worth. Clearly if eplacement parts are needed then it's beyond me but if it were a case of partial dismantling, cleaning and reassembling then I would give it a go. It has been sitting in a drawer for half a century and was running 10 or 20 years ago.

From what I remember of the winding mechanism when the plate was removed it uses a crown wheel and pinion so I think you're correct that the movement should push out, but my biggest concern is damaging the hands when removing them.

Mike

[watchweasol]

Hi. The way the movement comes out it through the front. Remove the bezel and the glass,   You will have to make some small pry levers for hand removal.  Put some polythene over the dial to protect it then using the levers gently pry off the hands. Once removed turn over the watch onto a soft pad to protect the fourth wheel extension for the sweep hand, after that remove the two case screws holding the movement into the case (two on the very edge) and the movement will push/drop out from there. At this stage. Check the movement for power and release the click controlling the rundown. Once done now you can dismantle the watch, balance first checking its pivots and jewels for breakages and damage.  The watch is a nice one and we’ll worth reviving, its a three quarter plate movement.

[MJD]

3 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. The way the movement comes out it through the front. Remove the bezel and the glass,   You will have to make some small pry levers for hand removal.  Put some polythene over the dial to protect it then using the levers gently pry off the hands. Once removed turn over the watch onto a soft pad to protect the fourth wheel extension for the sweep hand, after that remove the two case screws holding the movement into the case (two on the very edge) and the movement will push/drop out from there. At this stage. Check the movement for power and release the click controlling the rundown. Once done now you can dismantle the watch, balance first checking its pivots and jewels for breakages and damage.  The watch is a nice one and we’ll worth reviving, its a three quarter plate movement.

That's very helpful, thank you. I have some Mylar sheet to protect the face and a friend has a set of tools to remove and replace the hands.

I will continue with this when I get home next week and will report back. I promise not to do anything else silly without asking for advice on here first.

Mike

[watchweasol]

Hi lookforward to hearing how you get on ,   remember just ask we are here tp help you over the hurdles.

[HectorLooi]

21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

it doesn't have the fun that working on high voltage electronics does

Funny that you should mention this. It's probably off topic, but I've had a fascination with high voltage electricity from young.

I've worked on many high voltage equipment over the years, from vintage valve equipment, electrostatic air cleaners, photo flashes, induction furnaces and xray machines. Got zapped countless times.

The scariest thing I've worked on was a dental lab induction casting machine. It had a vacuum tube the size of a gold fish bowl. The ceramic capacitors in that thing was the size of door knobs. The working voltage was 1500V with sufficient amperage to melt non-precious alloys up to 1500°C.

[MJD]

While I'm away I'm reading Donald de Carle's informative book and was alarmed to learn that he recommends cleaning the balance in potassium cyanide ...

My favourite cleaning agent for electronic assemblies is IPA (no, not the beer!) as it dries quickly without leaving a residue. Is that suitable for watch parts?

Mike

[watchweasol]

Hi you have to remember De Carle wrote that in the 50s a lot has change since then.  You can use IPA but dont soak the balance or Naptha, Benzine etc there have been many discussions on this subject so I suggest you look it up on the site for further in formation.

Hi you have to remember De Carle wrote that in the 50s a lot has change since then.  You can use IPA but dont soak the balance or Naptha, Benzine etc there have been many discussions on this subject so I suggest you look it up on the site for further in formation.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, MJD said:

Donald de Carle's informative book and was alarmed to learn that he recommends cleaning the balance in potassium cyanide ...

the reason why as somebody else pointed out it's when the book was written. Today though you can buy modern watch cleaning fluids and they do a really beautiful job without the hazardous effects to the user if there's an accident.

2 hours ago, MJD said:

My favourite cleaning agent for electronic assemblies is IPA

you'll find cleaning watches like a lot of things filled with everyone has an opinion. I would prefer a commercial watch cleaning fluid followed by the rinsing solution several of those followed by I PA or some other form of alcohol. I use a different version of alcohol which the group would frown on because it dissolves shellac but it's only being used to rinse off the rinse so it will dry so it's not an issue. So basically I PA is not a good cleaning product all by itself.

[MJD]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the reason why as somebody else pointed out it's when the book was written. Today though you can buy modern watch cleaning fluids and they do a really beautiful job without the hazardous effects to the user if there's an accident.

you'll find cleaning watches like a lot of things filled with everyone has an opinion. I would prefer a commercial watch cleaning fluid followed by the rinsing solution several of those followed by I PA or some other form of alcohol. I use a different version of alcohol which the group would frown on because it dissolves shellac but it's only being used to rinse off the rinse so it will dry so it's not an issue. So basically I PA is not a good cleaning product all by itself.

Understood, thank you.

Mike

[Galilea]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:21 PM, JohnR725 said:

the reason why as somebody else pointed out it's when the book was written. Today though you can buy modern watch cleaning fluids and they do a really beautiful job without the hazardous effects to the user if there's an accident.

you'll find cleaning watches like a lot of things filled with everyone has an opinion. I would prefer a commercial watch cleaning fluid followed by the rinsing solution several of those followed by I PA or some other form of alcohol. I use a different version of alcohol which the group would frown on because it dissolves shellac but it's only being used to rinse off the rinse so it will dry so it's not an issue. So basically I PA is not a good cleaning product all by itself.

I don't suppose there are any DIY rinse solutions? I have the L & R cleaning stuff, I have one-dip but when I bought those I thought wow, that's pricey, I'll rinse in water/thinner or something , then be sure to dry well. Is that an approach that works? I know not to rinse with alcohol because of the shellac it might melt.

[MJD]

Hello everyone, I'm back and proceeding with care .

Using my friend's tool and a piece of mylar sheet I have removed the second and minute hands, loosened the retaining screws and removed the movement from the case.

The hour hand is too close to the dial so I presume it will come away with the hour wheel when the dial is removed?

Before I go any further I have two questions:

• How do I let the mainspring down? I can't see a click anywhere.
• What is the piece of paper under the balance cock for?

Thanks in advance.

Mike

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by MJD

[RichardHarris123]

I would assume the click is under the dial, photos please.  The paper is a shim to adjust to height if the balance cock. 

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, MJD said:

How do I let the mainspring down? I can't see a click anywhere.

I'm confused? I see the watch looks like it's now back together again did you wind it up when it was back together? Because previously way up above you remove the plate and there should have been no power because it would've released. then because of the way this watch those in the case the coupling between the crown and the watch letting power off would be difficult. Is basically nothing to grab onto the release it so hopefully you didn't wind it up.

Otherwise which gets stuck doing is taking out the balance taking out the pallet fork and then the thing gets the spin down and hopefully nothing gets in the way or it gets broken plus people frown on spinning dirty watches but there really isn't any other way to take the power off if you whelmed it back up again.

Just now, RichardHarris123 said:

I would assume the click is under the dial, photos please

now if the clinic is under the dial and you remove the hands and dial you can put the movement back in the case and secure it and then holding onto the crown you could release the click and let the power off that way.

[MJD]

16 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm confused? I see the watch looks like it's now back together again did you wind it up when it was back together? Because previously way up above you remove the plate and there should have been no power because it would've released. then because of the way this watch those in the case the coupling between the crown and the watch letting power off would be difficult. Is basically nothing to grab onto the release it so hopefully you didn't wind it up.

No, I replaced the plate after having my wrist slapped. I have never wound the watch because it was fully wound when I started. At least I presume it is because the winder doesn't move.

Mike

21 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I would assume the click is under the dial, photos please.  The paper is a shim to adjust to height if the balance cock. 

Thank you for that. The dial has three pillars secured by brass wires (although one is missing). I shall remove it tomorrow and post a photo of the movement underneath.

Mike

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 8/13/2023 at 1:40 AM, Galilea said:

I don't suppose there are any DIY rinse solutions? I have the L & R cleaning stuff, I have one-dip but when I bought those I thought wow, that's pricey, I'll rinse in water/thinner or something , then be sure to dry well. Is that an approach that works? I know not to rinse with alcohol because of the shellac it might melt.

IPA is good for rinsing off cleaner from watch parts . If you dont want to risk shellaced pallet or roller stones for a quick one min dip and dry in IPA then use your little bottle of one dip for just those which is what that is for. Rinsing in water can be risky for ferrous parts without a good pro cleaner with  immediate thorough drying. I've experienced flash rusting quite quickly especially on thin areas . Try for yourself to see how quickly oxidation takes place without a good drying method.

[MJD]

I couldn't wait until tomorrow so I have removed the dial, which appears to be enamel. More questions:

• How do I safely separate the hour wheel from the hand?
• How do I clean the dial?

I think I have identified the click now, so as advised I will put the movement back in the case and let it off carefully while holding the winder, yes?

The movement is marked "Newsome". Is that a well known make? UK or US?

Thanks again.

Mike

 

22 minutes ago, MJD said:

The movement is marked "Newsome". Is that a well known make? UK or US?

Silly me. I found the hallmarks and it's London 1914 18ct. Newsome & Co. Coventry.

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

The dial should clean up nicely with warm water and washing up liquid.  I would have removed the hour hand by dressing some hand levers if necessary.  Just because the case is from 1914, it doesn't necessary mean the movement is. The movement looks older to me. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, MJD said:

• How do I safely separate the hour wheel from the hand?
• How do I clean the dial?

nice thing with enameled tiles are they can be cleaned a variety of methods that anything else would disintegrate. But I've occasionally heard of people washing their dials to find that the black letters were not enameled on instead were painted I've never seen that myself but that's always a concern. I would they can be more likely if there was a store name or something that might be paid a dog but if it's fire enameled on it can withstand so water all sorts of things. At work I'll dip it in the same ultrasonic they clean the casing and band parts. Because it's really good at cleaning the little micro cracks and things. But notice how your dial is really two separate dials?it looks like to enter part has been glued in later versions they used a very low temperature solder after the parts for enameled. But yours has a white-ish look which is some sort of vintage glue which means we get it wet a risk that coming undone and you really don't want that. That means you should bill wipe your dial off with water or soapy water possibly a quick dip in the water but just be warned that might decide to disintegrate

then the hour wheel in hand. As you probably don't have the tools yet perhaps try a razor blade or two or two X-Acto blade knives on the back side and see if you can pull the hour wheel off gently at least our hands pushing against the enamel dial and it's not going to didn't it or anything that was a painted dial you wouldn't want to do this

then as you can now see the click you can gently push on it and see if it really is wound up. But I can't see how it can be because it's held this side but on the other side when you took it apart it seems like it would've been freed a spin because there wasn't really much holding in place.