Vintage pocket watch repair

[MJD]

Thank you both. As I said at the beginning of this project I won't be disappointed if it doesn't run but I don't like to admit defeat. The hole for the pin is around 0.4mm diameter so I will get some 0.5mm hard brass wire and give it a go.

Mike

[MJD]

I fabricated an impulse pin from a 0.3 to 0.6mm tapered brass clock pin. It's an interference fit in the roller plate so no adhesive needed and about the right diameter for the pallet fork. If I gently push the balance wheel to and fro the pallet moves back and forth but the balance doesn't  turn freely and the watch still doesn't run. With the original paper shim under the balance cock the sideshake and endshake seem about right according to Mr de Carle. It's hard to be certain but I think the roller plate may be touching the top of the pallet.

Then when I removed the balance assembly the wheel dropped off the spring. This might explain why the roller plate was too low? If I try to refit it how do I know if the two parts are correctly aligned?

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

If you watch videos on replacing balance staffs, they show how to get the hairspring in the correct position.  Mark, our host does a good one.  The collet is going to need tightening. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, MJD said:

Then when I removed the balance assembly the wheel dropped off the spring. This might explain why the roller plate was too low? If I try to refit it how do I know if the two parts are correctly aligned?

By the way hairsprings are not supposed to fall off the balance staff at all. You see the center brass collet? That is supposed to friction fit on the staff. So if it just falls off that's definitely a problem that will have to be fixed because the watch will not run if it's not tight on the collet.

Then looking at your picture I see some problems and not a crisis problem can zero care about running but there's something else

so yes it's a bit fuzzy but where's the pivot?

If your pivot is too short because it's broken then the entire balance wheel will drop down just a little bit and that would definitely be an issue.

Then the collet even actually falls off you going to have to ideally should tighten the collet the problem is tightening can be a challenge as now require more tools. Which unfortunately is a problem in watch repair is always a specialty tool for something but don't worry none of us have enough tools

Then this is a big problem considering everything else more of an amusement Then by the way your roller jewel looks quite nice that looks fine notice I circled two screws and mark the other two notice how they look a little bit different and they have much longer threads? That's because these are adjustable screws for timekeeping purposes which typically would never be screwed in tight the balance wheel they would stick out a little bit so you would have a range of adjustment. But seeing as how you just want the watch to run and not keep time we won't worry about. But it is always troubling when the screws are in tight when they Not be

 

[MJD]

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If you watch videos on replacing balance staffs, they show how to get the hairspring in the correct position.  Mark, our host does a good one.  The collet is going to need tightening. 

Thanks I'll have a look for those videos. How does one tighten the collet?

Mike

23 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

By the way hairsprings are not supposed to fall off the balance staff at all. You see the center brass collet? That is supposed to friction fit on the staff. So if it just falls off that's definitely a problem that will have to be fixed because the watch will not run if it's not tight on the collet.

Then looking at your picture I see some problems and not a crisis problem can zero care about running but there's something else

so yes it's a bit fuzzy but where's the pivot?

If your pivot is too short because it's broken then the entire balance wheel will drop down just a little bit and that would definitely be an issue.

Then the collet even actually falls off you going to have to ideally should tighten the collet the problem is tightening can be a challenge as now require more tools. Which unfortunately is a problem in watch repair is always a specialty tool for something but don't worry none of us have enough tools

Then this is a big problem considering everything else more of an amusement Then by the way your roller jewel looks quite nice that looks fine notice I circled two screws and mark the other two notice how they look a little bit different and they have much longer threads? That's because these are adjustable screws for timekeeping purposes which typically would never be screwed in tight the balance wheel they would stick out a little bit so you would have a range of adjustment. But seeing as how you just want the watch to run and not keep time we won't worry about. But it is always troubling when the screws are in tight when they Not be

 

Thanks for all the helpful and interesting information. I will examine the pivot tomorrow to see if it is indeed broken. I should be able to get a better picture with my microscope.

Mike

@JohnR725 I think you were right about a pivot being broken . The top one (on the left in the picture).

So where do I go from here? Are there standard sizes of balance staff or is it a custom job?

Mike

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, MJD said:

I will examine the pivot tomorrow to see if it is indeed broken. I should be able to get a better picture with my microscope.

We don't really need a better picture as one pivot is definitely very very gone and the other pivot is so short it might as well be gone. Which unfortunately is a new balance staff which will present a problem and a whole bunch a more tools to buy.

[RichardHarris123]

Standard sizes of staffs exist but it doesn't mean yours is a standard size and even if it is, a replacement may not be available.  You'll have to measure the staff and we can help you find a replacement if possible.  The next problem after that is reassembly. 

[Nucejoe]

 Your watch is in need of a donor movement and there should be a chance of finding one as most such pieces were cased in gold back then and later salvaged for the gold.

Rgds

 

 

[MJD]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

We don't really need a better picture as one pivot is definitely very very gone and the other pivot is so short it might as well be gone. Which unfortunately is a new balance staff which will present a problem and a whole bunch a more tools to buy.

OK well at least I know now why the watch doesn't run. Whether this was the original problem or something I did during my investigations I'll never know. I doubt I have the necessary skills to fit a new one but maybe I can find a local watchmaker to do the work

Mike

9 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Standard sizes of staffs exist but it doesn't mean yours is a standard size and even if it is, a replacement may not be available.  You'll have to measure the staff and we can help you find a replacement if possible.  The next problem after that is reassembly. 

Thanks @RichardHarris123. I can measure the diameter of the staff but what about length - to the shoulders? Also I presume I need to measure the diameter of the pivot (or what's left of it)?

Mike

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Your watch is in need of a donor movement and there should be a chance of finding one as most such pieces were cased in gold back then and later salvaged for the gold.

Rgds

 

 

I will look into that if I can't get this one repaired.

Mike

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, MJD said:

OK well at least I know now why the watch doesn't run. Whether this was the original problem or something I did during my investigations I'll never know. I doubt I have the necessary skills to fit a new one but maybe I can find a local watchmaker to do the work

One of the problems with nonstructured learning or learning as you go is well you can go down the rabbit hole really fast and. Basically something that may look relatively simple becomes really really complicated. With the added bonus of none of us by the way have enough tools but almost any need a whole bunch of tools that you hadn't counted on needing. On the other hand you done really well so far and all of this could still be fixed.

Then ideally for the staff measurements we need more than one dimension. It depends upon the reference e-book you look at but I do have the book of miscellaneous balance staffs and here's what they're expecting. Then for the length you have to make an estimate. Ideally be nice to find the original staff but unlikely not impossible just unlikely. Then the next best you could hope for is a staff that's really close that can be trimmed to fit. Then worst case somebody has to make a new one. Then yes there are people it will make balance staffs out there.

 

[MJD]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the problems with nonstructured learning or learning as you go is well you can go down the rabbit hole really fast and. Basically something that may look relatively simple becomes really really complicated. With the added bonus of none of us by the way have enough tools but almost any need a whole bunch of tools that you hadn't counted on needing. On the other hand you done really well so far and all of this could still be fixed.

Then ideally for the staff measurements we need more than one dimension. It depends upon the reference e-book you look at but I do have the book of miscellaneous balance staffs and here's what they're expecting. Then for the length you have to make an estimate. Ideally be nice to find the original staff but unlikely not impossible just unlikely. Then the next best you could hope for is a staff that's really close that can be trimmed to fit. Then worst case somebody has to make a new one. Then yes there are people it will make balance staffs out there.

 

Thanks @JohnR725, I've had a go at measuring the staff as best I can without removing the balance and roller so I couldn't get to the balance shoulder seat. I used an electronic digital caliper which I've calibrated against a mechanical micrometer. Not sure if you need metric or imperial but here's what I got. Obviously the length is inaccurate due to the damaged/missing pivots.

Mike

Edited August 31, 2023 by MJD
additional information

[tomh207]

This was posted yesterday by Kalle on the Chronoglide channel, it might help.

 

 

it is specifically centred around the balance staff in an unknown movement.

 

Tom

[MJD]

37 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

This was posted yesterday by Kalle on the Chronoglide channel, it might help.

 

 

it is specifically centred around the balance staff in an unknown movement.

 

Tom

Thank you Tom for that amazingly helpful video. Now I need to remove the balance and roller so I can measure the staff properly.

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

As @JohnR725 pointed out, you have done well so far.  Measure the staff properly and we'll help from there. 

[MJD]

3 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

As @JohnR725 pointed out, you have done well so far.  Measure the staff properly and we'll help from there. 

That's very kind of you to say so @RichardHarris123 but I wouldn't have got this far without the help of this forum.

I have removed the roller but I'm not brave enough to attempt to remove the balance. Still I think I can get a close measurement of the balance shoulder seat under the microscope.

Can you confirm that the measurements in the DCN catalogue are in mm, i.e. "673" = 6.73mm?

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

I'm pretty sure you correct about the measurements being in mm, watch crystals measurements are the same.  Someone will tell you for sure. 

[tomh207]

I agree with @RichardHarris123 if a European movement it will be measured in 1/100th of a millimetre.

 

Tom

[MJD]

3 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

I agree with @RichardHarris123 if a European movement it will be measured in 1/100th of a millimetre.

 

Tom

OK thanks. I have repeated the measurements as best I can, making a small allowance for the missing pivot. According to the chap in the Chronoglide video it isn't necessary to measure the pivot diameter as they are standard. I had a look at the online DCN and Ronda catalogues but there is no mention of Newsome. It's a 20 ligne watch.

Any suggestions for how I can proceed please?

Mike

[tomh207]

I think as Kalle said it would be now trying to match the ligne size to the overall estimated size of the staff. Sorry I am not able to be more helpful

 

Tom

[RichardHarris123]

I agree with @tomh207, use the measurements to determine the caliber and then look for a replacement. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, MJD said:

According to the chap in the Chronoglide video it isn't necessary to measure the pivot diameter as they are standard.

The definition of standard can be quite amusing. My favorite balance staff to make fun of is the Elgin 857 one part number for how many staff's? They came in Four variations. Then in each of variation categories it also had pivots size differences. With two of them having up to five different pivots sizes.

Oh and thinking of pivots sizes we should also check your jewels often times when pivots get broken The hole jewels Can be cracked or broken and on a really horrible drop the end stone Will be broken.

Oh almost forgot to add I have another reference book labeled American staffs by size but it does have some foreign staffs unfortunately I don't see anything that's exact bit but often times you get something close and you modify it if you have access to a Lathe otherwise you get to make a new one.

Edited September 1, 2023 by JohnR725

[MJD]

OK I will start searching the catalogues for a match. No lathe here ...

I'm going on holiday so it will be a while before I can make any serious progress, but thanks again to everyone here.

Mike

[MJD]

20 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The definition of standard can be quite amusing. My favorite balance staff to make fun of is the Elgin 857 one part number for how many staff's? They came in Four variations. Then in each of variation categories it also had pivots size differences. With two of them having up to five different pivots sizes.

Oh and thinking of pivots sizes we should also check your jewels often times when pivots get broken The hole jewels Can be cracked or broken and on a really horrible drop the end stone Will be broken.

Oh almost forgot to add I have another reference book labeled American staffs by size but it does have some foreign staffs unfortunately I don't see anything that's exact bit but often times you get something close and you modify it if you have access to a Lathe otherwise you get to make a new one.

I had a look through the DCN catalogue and like you I found a couple that were similar but not close enough to be modified.

Interestingly there were very few 20 ligne movements listed.

Mike

[RichardHarris123]

What do you intend doing? 

[MJD]

15 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

What do you intend doing? 

Right now I'm going on holiday. I'll get back to this in a couple of weeks. Maybe look for a local watchmaker who can help.

Mikr