Sticky as a stick

[Waggy]

Hope someone out there can help me before I go caveman on my balance spring. I just finished disassembling and cleaning  a watch and all was going well, too well, the balance has am amplitude of 270° then I put on the dial and hands on and turn it over ready to case up when i notice the balance is barely moving. I retrace my steps and remove the hands and dial, but still sluggish balance. I remove the balance and re-seat it and all is well again... Then for no reason it goes sluggish again.

Looking under the scope, sorry no pictures, not a fancy trinocular scope, I can see some of the coils are sticking together. So I demagnatize and all is well again....got it sorted...how smart am I! Then after 10 mins or so it sluggs again...back to the demagnatizer, it wakes up only later to get sleepy again...

So now I'm thinking oily hair spring, so I remove the balance and submerge in hexane, good soak +/- 30 mins. Then confirm there are no kinks or bends in the hair spring, and replace, re oil the balance jewels..... Got it this time.... But no.... Slug city. Repeat the soak, this time in naphtha first, then hexane....same story. 

I look again at the coils all straight and no kinks or bends or obvious clumps of oil or fibres etc, I'm at a loss.

I was about to drip acetone on the coils, but talked myself into calling it a night and watch some TV.

Any ideas where to go next, before I end up doing something stupid and junk the watch? 

[RichardHarris123]

If it wakes up after being demagnetised and then slows down again, is it somehow being remangetisted? 

[Waggy]

Pick the bones out of this time trace

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If it wakes up after being demagnetised and then slows down again, is it somehow being remangetisted? 

I was assuming the demagnatizing process was shocking the spring loose, then after a while it was re-clogging?

[RichardHarris123]

42 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Pick the bones out of this time trace

I was assuming the demagnatizing process was shocking the spring loose, then after a while it was re-clogging?

Maybe. 

[mikepilk]

I've had this problem - ran the balance through the U/S cleaner 2x with Elma cleaner/rinse/IPA, and still sticking together. I did try acetone, and it solved it for me. From what I've read, it doesn't dissolve shellac

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

I was assuming the demagnatizing process was shocking the spring loose, then after a while it was re-clogging?

definitely an interesting picture doesn't exactly look like a magnetized hairspring.

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I've had this problem - ran the balance through the U/S cleaner 2x with Elma cleaner/rinse/IPA, and still sticking together. I did try acetone, and it solved it for me. From what I've read, it doesn't dissolve shellac

we don't know the background histories of watches like how they were treated. So as we don't know what exactly is on the hairspring as far as we will loosely call lubrication. So it's always conceivable that whatever it is whatever rinse your using doesn't rinse it off.  then I would try something different then you probably don't have to leave it all day in the rinse whatever it is is probably relatively thin hopefully is try some other chemicals even for dissolving shellac unless it's at elevated temperature it usually doesn't dissolve instantly it takes a little bit of time which means your incident just about anything you feel like at least for a short time span

 

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I did try acetone, and it solved it for me. From what I've read, it doesn't dissolve shellac

The calibre was never mentioned but if it is somewhat modern we can likely assume the impulse pin is friction fitted rather than fixed with shellac so I don't think there's anything to worry about. Nevertheless, in my experience, acetone is one of the more efficient chemicals to dissolve shellac.

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The calibre was never mentioned but if it is somewhat modern we can likely assume the impulse pin is friction fitted rather than fixed with shellac so I don't think there's anything to worry about. Nevertheless, in my experience, acetone is one of the more efficient chemicals to dissolve shellac.

I did a quick Google, and the opinion seemed to be it didn't dissolve shellac - I should have looked deeper.

Anyway, similar to IPA, a few seconds dip should not be a problem on the shellac, but may solve the spring problem

[HectorLooi]

Modern impulse jewels seem to be friction fitted or glued in. So they are probably more resistant to IPA and acetone. But vintage watches that are shellaced, it's probably not a good idea to use acetone. 

Elsewhere in this forum, another member wrote about Chinese hairsprings unglueing from the stud after cleaning. So, it's not an urban legend or myth.

[Waggy]

Here are some pictures of the movement in question:

So this watch is circa 1962, and there is the number 810 on the movement which I assume is the calibre.

 

I left the balance soaking in fresh hexane over night, I'll try it out when I get home from work and feedback.

[VWatchie]

6 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Elsewhere in this forum, another member wrote about Chinese hairsprings unglueing from the stud after cleaning.

 Good point! I never even thought about that! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

Here are some pictures of the movement in question:

So this watch is circa 1962, and there is the number 810 on the movement which I assume is the calibre.

 

I left the balance soaking in fresh hexane over night, I'll try it out when I get home from work and feedback.

I thought you would be able to physically see the coils sticking together.  I'm sure everyone has experienced this effect from both magnetism and adhesion. I would want to know which it is before taking further action. My first thought, what could possibly be on the hairspring that is so different that it can't be removed with the usual cleaning fluids that most people use. Maybe its not an adhesive like we imagine, so attention drawn to magnetism.  Mild re magnetism as it enters the movement's space something in the movement that is magnetised or the tweezers that you are using ?( even supposedly anti magnetic tweezers can hold a tiny amount ).   I had a similar quandary about six months back, so i set up the highest magnification i had at the time which was x40. Then slowly watched the coils contract as i rotated the balance wheel . I could see the coils suddenly pull together as they started to got closer. Demaging the whole watch solved the problem,  it was just something i had forgotten to do before i started work on the movement. 

[Waggy]

That's a good idea, I'll break out the high magnification eye pieces on my microscope and see if I can spot the coils jumping together or otherwise interacting magnetically. I'll also take the added precaution of demag-ing any tools I plan to use prior to working in the watch.

[Waggy]

Think I got it!!!

Looking through the microscope it didn't see any signs of magnetism, but just to cover all my bases (shotgun approach!) I de-magged the watch and prior to working on it I demaged my tools also. I then soaked the balance in hexane for 24 hours and then naphtha for 10 mins, then IPA for 5 mins, then acetone for 5 mins allowed it to dry out for an hour and then oiled the jewel. I took a good look at the hairspring under the highest magnification and noticed no coil sticking, but I did notice the tiniest of kinks in the spring, usually I would have ignored it as it was so minor, but I corrected it this time.

Anyway, something or a combination of things above seems to have done the trick - its not an expensive watch or particularly beautiful, but I wasn't going to let it beat me!

Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions - it's nice just to have a sounding board and bounce ideas off people rather than working in isolation and heading down a 'rabbit hole'!

Edited August 8, 2023 by Waggy

[Waggy]

Just to close the loop, here is the finished watch:

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, Waggy said:

Just to close the loop, here is the finished watch:

I absolutely disagree! It is "particularly beautiful"! Congrats, and as a watch repairer, defeat is never an option! 

Edited August 9, 2023 by VWatchie