Seiko 5740C - as simple as it gets

[DrHWO]

This was picked up as a non runner. The linen dial clinched it for me. Broken mainspring was replaced as was the crystal. Great movement for a beginner. Not sure if the 3600 VPH made it easier to make it look good on the timegrapher, but it was the first to come off the bench with a single flat line. Not sure how long it will last as I only had Moebius 941 for the pallet jewels, which I guess will be being splattered all over.

 

[Nucejoe]

Hi Doc,

 Nice looking watch inside and out, been looking for one to buy, no joy so far. 

Its not just the high beat but escapement is good quality too, that is you are likely to  see nice lines on lower beats as well.

 

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, DrHWO said:

Not sure if the 3600 VPH made it easier to make it look good on the timegrapher, but it was the first to come off the bench with a single flat line. Not sure how long it will last as I only had Moebius 941 for the pallet jewels, which I guess will be being splattered all over.

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

good quality too

a lot of the early Seiko's are rather interesting because they do seem to be a very nice quality. Not quite a grand Seiko quality but not far away either they do tend to be very good timekeepers.yours has that micro regulator for fine adjustment also.

Then escapement lubrication I've seen on other discussion groups for the high frequency watches there is a concern I don't know if anyone ever came up with a good recommendation. After all your running twice as fast as a regular watch. Ideally you should use some epilam on the pallet fork stones to help to keep the oil in place. Otherwise the 9415 wasn't exactly invented for this higher frequency but would've been a better choice.

2 hours ago, DrHWO said:

Broken mainspring was replaced as was the crystal. Great movement for a beginner.

out of curiosity what mainspring did you use?

I'm not sure I'd recommend it for the typical beginner because beginner will usually have accidents things happen undesirable things. Then I'm not sure how plentiful these watches are or the availability of spare parts.

I found link with some additional information

https://calibercorner.com/seiko-caliber-5740c/

 

 

[DrHWO]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:23 PM, Nucejoe said:

been looking for one to buy

Got it on eBay for £77, but did spend on a new mainspring. Came from a ? dealer called Yamachan. "Sold as seen" and not in working order.

On 8/15/2023 at 6:46 PM, JohnR725 said:

what mainspring did you use?

Went to Cousins and got a GR D Mainspring 1.45 x .125 x 440 x 10.5 (I think  4007, non auto). I'm still at the stage where I can struggle to position the train bridge and this fell into position very nicely, twice (I did a dry run - literally with no lube, followed by a lubed repeat - it allowed me to concentrate on the quality of my application!). I haven't reached the stage where my "skills" would warrant epilam, in my view, but you're right, with this good a movement, it would probably warrant it. I've had it going for a week now and it will go (accurately) for 36-38 hours between winds and with my pattern of wear / use, I haven't had to  adjust the time (I only tend to if a minute or more off). What did shock me was the visual perfection of the jewels in a 50 year old watch. Maybe that added to to how decently it performed out of the gate on the timegrapher. Wasn't able to find an original crystal, but again Cousins to the rescue with an equivalent acrylic which looks good. All told with VAT and delivery, I guess £100 for the new parts + watch. Not sure what its worth now, but a moot point as its a keeper for now!

Edited August 17, 2023 by DrHWO
additional info

[Razz]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:12 AM, DrHWO said:

This was picked up as a non runner. The linen dial clinched it for me. Broken mainspring was replaced as was the crystal. Great movement for a beginner. Not sure if the 3600 VPH made it easier to make it look good on the timegrapher, but it was the first to come off the bench with a single flat line. Not sure how long it will last as I only had Moebius 941 for the pallet jewels, which I guess will be being splattered all over.

 

I think you should be fine with 941 on the pallet jewels, my understanding is that it is the oil for those jewels; might be different for Seiko, but for Swiss 941 is it.

[DrHWO]

So, at this early stage, the completed watch gains 1 minute every 10 days (at least with my pattern of use). I did the unregulated regulation (one position) as I was too excited to do more!

[JohnR725]

19 hours ago, Razz said:

I think you should be fine with 941 on the pallet jewels, my understanding is that it is the oil for those jewels; might be different for Seiko, but for Swiss 941 is it.

the history of lubrication for lever escapement's is interesting at one time basically it was just a light oil like 9010. Then they came up with 941 specifically designed for lever escapement's. Then 9415 which is a really interesting grease in that on impact it becomes fluid and is extremely slippery and the rest the time it's a grease and stays wherever you put it. So for a while you would have a transition of 941 for low frequency watches 9415 for high-frequency watches and now the recommendation is 9415 for everything. Then as a reminder this watch is running fast really fast instead of the normal 18,000 or 21,600 or even 28,000 for a fast modern watch this one is running at 36,000 beats per hour which is why it be nice if the lubrication would stay in place.

then I'm attaching a PDF which covers lubrication and you'll see they recommend 9415 as the escapement lubrication. Even watch companies tend to be cheap and just defaulted on one lubrication for everything.

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

completed watch gains 1 minute every 10 days

this is what makes some of the early Seiko watches interesting as they were made to very high standards. But even the ones that are running in 18,000 beats per hour some of them are still capable of very good timekeeping almost as good as a grand Seiko is my understanding of what I've read online.

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins UK.pdf

[VWatchie]

Congrats! MARVELlous Watch! Any challenges in particular handling those Diafix springs?

If you need spare parts you can always have a look at this: https://www.chrono24.se/seiko/lord-marvel-lm5740-36000-bph-vws-2190--id29461007.htm 

Edited August 21, 2023 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 8/20/2023 at 10:14 PM, Razz said:

I think you should be fine with 941 on the pallet jewels, my understanding is that it is the oil for those jewels; might be different for Seiko, but for Swiss 941 is it.

The 9415 grease is thicker so one would expect it to stay put a little longer. Those poor little rubies are flicking to and fro at double the pace of a standard bph movement.  

[VWatchie]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The 9415 grease is thicker so one would expect it to stay put a little longer. Those poor little rubies are flicking to and fro at double the pace of a standard bph movement.  

As I remember, 9415 was developed for hi-beat movements in particular but it works well for the low-beaters (18000 BPH) too.

Edited August 22, 2023 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

As I remember, 9415 was developed for hi-beat movements in particular but it works well for the low-beaters (18000 BPH) too.

9415 grease is the only escape lubrication i have, when i made a choice my thoughts were it would be easier to place than the 941 oil, but did not really consider that the extra thickness of a grease might slow down the escapement of a low beat. John then mentions that the properties of the 9415 make the grease become quite fluid and slippery on impact.  Impact of the jewel impulse face on the escape wheel teeth. I wonder how fluid and slippery compared to the oil. Without epilame used on the escapement the grease might be a better choice anyway as once the escape teeth have carved a groove through the grease's surface on the impulse face of the jewel any remaining oil either side of the groove would remain unimpacted and hopefully stay put . Does that make any sense ?

[dadistic]

I've found that 9415 can rob amplitude on a low beat watch, I don't use it much anymore, as I don't work on hi-beat movements very often. 

 

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, dadistic said:

I've found that 9415 can rob amplitude on a low beat watch, I don't use it much anymore, as I don't work on hi-beat movements very often. 

interesting? interesting as I haven't noticed that and I typically work on pocket watches that are low-frequency 18,000 and all he uses 9415.

Then if you get really obsessed with it if you use too much of the grease you are supposed to lose amplitude but in my mind it depends upon the particular escapement. So basically where the escape wheel has impact it becomes super slippery that's good but if the sides of escape wheel and the pallet stone art to think the sides will be sticky and will hold things in place. This is why if you look at Omega's recommendation is super minimalistic because are concerned about that.

Then as a reminder in this discussion you're dealing with a watch it is running at 36,000 BPH which is twice as fast as the normal watch and I've seen in other discussion groups where there always was a concern about lubricating the escapement because you're running twice as fast. so perhaps it's just telling us that if you're going to use 941 which is not recommended for higher frequency escapement's different time to time you should put some fresh oil in there just to keep it lubricated because you wouldn't want your escapement to wear out.

[dadistic]

It was on the Bulova 23 jewel 10BPAC movements that I noticed the difference, but it could be just me.  When I use 9415, I put it right on the pallet stones, covering 1/3 to 1/2 the end of the stone, very minimal amount. 

I could see trying 9415 on a pocket watch movement, everything is much beefier and I'd guess that the escapement is less sensitive to the type of oil.

Cheers!

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, dadistic said:

It was on the Bulova 23 jewel 10BPAC movements that I noticed the difference, but it could be just me.  When I use 9415, I put it right on the pallet stones, covering 1/3 to 1/2 the end of the stone, very minimal amount. 

I was thinking the only way you can really tell is if you doing a particular caliber that you have enough experience that when you switch to a different lubrication you can say all that looks bad or that looks better otherwise never quite sure why something isn't quite right.

then you put minimalistic lubrication on the end of the stone just one of them both of them and just one time or do you let some of the escape wheel teeth go by? Yes escapement lubrication is interesting because if you're in a room of other watchmakers and you ask how they lubricate everyone has a different point of view. That happened in a classroom once there are basically a whole bunch of variations on the same theme and the only one that was acceptable was the one from the instructor. Which was slightly different than everyone else in the classroom. Which is why I'm not assuming which you do or do not but I'm still curious.

[dadistic]

9415 - Both stones, only one time, and I'll manually move the escape wheel around a full revolution.

Other oils I do  differently, depending on what mood I'm in  

I've even tried watch paper soaked with 9010 that I wipe around the escape wheel, going for as thin of a film as I can get. It worked, but I don't know how that would hold up over time. 

I've also tried the technique where you apply a bit of oil every five teeth, but I tend to get oil all over the place when I do that. Maybe if I practiced I could manage that. 

 

[JohnR725]

let's see you left off the one that I saw the other day. We have a college teaching Rolex sponsored watch repair and their current method is to spin the escape wheel and with a big drop of oil bring it close to the spinning ACA will and yes it's a shame that you can't hear the concern in the tone of my voice of how stupid that method is. the concern I would have is as you're bringing your oiler with the oil if you happen to touch your oiler to this mini escape wheel will that be an issue?

when I was in school method they were using was placing a drop on the exit stone of the fork on the impulse plane. Moving in the fork back and forth until five teeth go by. Then another drop another five teeth and one more drop. now it becomes interesting is if the oil does not go all the way around to the entry stone or even if it somehow doesn't transfer quite right you will see it on the timing machine as an escapement issue. Or of course if you don't lubricate at all as sometimes people show their timing machine and I'll ask what to do use and the last time a course somebody had not lubricated all. It's really amazing what lubrication does to the amplitude if you would just lubricate your escapement.

then we have Omega in the attached PDF. When you look at their thoughts on escapement lubrication they're going extremely minimalistic. I believe once again the word about loss of amplitude. But there are also recommending and knowing people worked in Swatch group they do this replacing the escape wheel or the pallet fork or both if they're having any issue at all. But what they really want to see is your escape wheel having Lubrifar on it. Which I find amusing because typically watchmakers wash it off because they see the black substance on the escape wheel and they wash it off.

Now for this discussion it would really be nice if we had some Lubrifar which we don't. yes at one time you get a kit to apply that to your own escape wheels and it probably cost more then well I bet she was expensive. That's because this is a substance of molybdenum disulfide mixed with oil which I believe is 9010. Seeing as how everyone on the group or almost everyone likes the wine about the high cost oil I can't imagine a spray can with that being the oil and the other dry high pressure lubricant costing well I suspect it must been extremely expensive. What I don't quite understand is if the Molly high-pressure lubricated is good why don't they mix just a little bit of it into the 9415 and that seems like it might be very very good.

 

 

 

 

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, dadistic said:

It was on the Bulova 23 jewel 10BPAC movements that I noticed the difference, but it could be just me.  When I use 9415, I put it right on the pallet stones, covering 1/3 to 1/2 the end of the stone, very minimal amount. 

I could see trying 9415 on a pocket watch movement, everything is much beefier and I'd guess that the escapement is less sensitive to the type of oil.

Cheers!

I thought the same about the bigger movements, maybe still a loss of amplitude but to a much lesser degree than something like a 10 ligne 

1 hour ago, dadistic said:

It was on the Bulova 23 jewel 10BPAC movements that I noticed the difference, but it could be just me.  When I use 9415, I put it right on the pallet stones, covering 1/3 to 1/2 the end of the stone, very minimal amount. 

I could see trying 9415 on a pocket watch movement, everything is much beefier and I'd guess that the escapement is less sensitive to the type of oil.

Cheers!

Wouldn't  lubricating escape teeth be a better idea, the surface area is smaller than the area of the impulse face of a jewel. Might it reduce the amount of grease altogether on the jewel.

[dadistic]

I'll have to try the Omega recommended technique, they have a section for no Lubrifar no Epliame. Worth a shot. 

[Nucejoe]

 I can't think of a reason for oil to be on parts of pallet  that don't come in contact with the escape teeth, so I let the escape teeth distribute oil where it does come in contact with the pallets. 

I just oil escape teeth a liitle and keep adding oil in small bits as I keep an eye on the amplitude, its the amplitude that tells me when to stop.

                Enough oil , man ,  it says.  

And when there is no extra oil, it can't  migrate or aggregate where its not welcommed. 

Equal distribution of lubricants  by the escapement itself , may take hour of running the movement. 

Some folks oil in reverse order, that is they oil the pallets and in small bits and let the pallets lubricat the escape teeth, then remove the fork, rinse it/ reinstall,  its then the escape teeth that lubrictes the pallets. 

If you apply oil in small bits, you are unlikely to grosselly overlube.

 

 

[Razz]

My 941 comme was specific to the OPs comment that he used 941 and he thought it would splatter everywhere. Obviously that is not the case. 941 is acceptable for most low beat vintage Swiss movement's pallet stones. And  now that I have a bottle that will last me for hundreds of services I doubt I will be purchasing 9415 anytime soon!

[DrHWO]

On 8/22/2023 at 6:21 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Without epilame used on the escapement the grease might be a better choice anyway as once the escape teeth have carved a groove through the grease's surface on the impulse face of the jewel any remaining oil either side of the groove would remain unimpacted and hopefully stay put

From my research, the 9415 undergoes a physical chemistry reversible reaction caused by shock or impact, reducing its viscocity momentarily. This is probably why it's recommended for high beat movements and has the potential to remain a bit too gloopy in slower beaters because of the reduced impact. Clever folks at Moebius (or was I sucked in by the sales hype?!?). I was so chuffed with the results here, I had a cordovan strap made by "The Strap Tailor" to fit my 8.5" wrist. It's a beaut. I'll stick some pics on once I've been to the tanning salon and had my left arm waxed.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, DrHWO said:

From my research, the 9415 undergoes a physical chemistry reversible reaction caused by shock or impact, reducing its viscocity momentarily. This is probably why it's recommended for high beat movements and has the potential to remain a bit too gloopy in slower beaters because of the reduced impact. Clever folks at Moebius (or was I sucked in by the sales hype?!?). I was so chuffed with the results here, I had a cordovan strap made by "The Strap Tailor" to fit my 8.5" wrist. It's a beaut. I'll stick some pics on once I've been to the tanning salon and had my left arm waxed.

Doc, you're just a poser mate

[Nucejoe]

13 hours ago, DrHWO said:

From my research, the 9415 undergoes a physical chemistry reversible reaction caused by shock or impact, reducing its viscocity momentarily. 

Is there a physical chemistry major among us to explain this process.

I know a little, thought I share.

Its called ( thixotropic property ) of fluid and is temperature dependant.

Intermolecular bonds take hold and gelatinize the fluid which if ( the bond) is sheared by force, intermolecular forces quickly reorganize to form a  bond again, which is a quick process in 9415.  Thst is; molecules reorganize  before the fluid gets a chance to travel/ spread.

You pay $180  for the work done by intermolecular forces.

Moebius gets rich.  

 

[DrHWO]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

you're just a poser mate

I think you mis spelt **BLEEP** wit