Cannot manually wind ETA 2892 (date and time setting are fine) - what to check?

[k3l3k]

I have just put together an ETA 2892 back after cleaning. Time accuracy is very good so far but the winding stem is causing problems.

Crown position 2 (date setting) and crown position-3 (time setting) feel and work absolutely fine.

Issue is with crown position -1 where after couple of days of winding without problems, the crown is has started to feel extremely tight, so tight that I cannot manually wind any more. If I take out the crown to position -2 and put it back to position-1, I can do just about 2 turns where I can feel the watch winding and then the crown does to rotate any more and feels rock solid (I did not try any more).

Feels like an issue with the keyless works but as I have very little experience with ETA 2892, could I please get some pointers on what I should check when I strip the movement back again?

[Waggy]

Is the intermediate wheel chamfered on one side, if so there is a possibility that you may have installed it upside down, generally the chamfer goes down (but there are always exceptions of course). I once did this and the winding felt 'crunchy' when winding, but didn't lock up like you have experienced. If you change the stem to the date setting position, you would temporarily disengage the sliding pinion from the wheel and when you return the stem to the winding position it would re engage for a few turns until it locks up again... Could explain what you are seeing?

Hopefully this is a reasonably quick check as you may not have to take the keyless assembly apart and fight the yolk spring 

Other thing that came to mind is the automatic works, if this has an issue it can sometimes lock up the winding mechanism, but not sure if your movement has an automatic works... Worth a try.

[k3l3k]

6 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Other thing that came to mind is the automatic works, if this has an issue it can sometimes lock up the winding mechanism, but not sure if your movement has an automatic works... Worth a try.

Thanks, I will check the intermediate wheel. Could you please tell me how the automatic works could lock up the winding mechanism (mine is an ETA 2892 so has automatic works)? 

[Waggy]

The automatic works interacts with the spring barrel/ratchet wheel mechanism to tighten the spring. Similarly the winding pinion also interacts with the spring via the winding mechanism. If one side is locked up, you may see it on the other side. 

You may see that the rotor weight does not rotate freely is stays in one position when rotating the watch, which would add weight to this theory (pardon the pun). Quick way to check is to remove the automatic works module (usually removable as an entire module) and see if the problem remains.

The reason I thought of this is that a recent video on My Retro Watches has the exact issue you are describing, and this was down to the automatic works. I think its part two (re-build) of the Roco video, the most recent one.

[rossjackson01]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Is the intermediate wheel chamfered on one side, if so there is a possibility that you may have installed it upside down, generally the chamfer goes down (but there are always exceptions of course).

Waggy. You are training me well. I read the post and thought it might be upside down intermediate wheel. Then lo', on next post you stated the same. Feel pleased to be in the same honoured place as you. 

[Waggy]

@rossjackson01 thanks , they say great minds think alike!

[tomh207]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

@rossjackson01 thanks , they say great minds think alike!

My grandmother would add to that “and simple ones seldom differ”

 

Tom

[Kalanag]

Removing the automatic module will show immediately if there is a problem with the reversers.

[k3l3k]

20 hours ago, Waggy said:

Is the intermediate wheel chamfered on one side, if so there is a possibility that you may have installed it upside down, generally the chamfer goes down (but there are always exceptions of course). I once did this and the winding felt 'crunchy' when winding, but didn't lock up like you have experienced. If you change the stem to the date setting position, you would temporarily disengage the sliding pinion from the wheel and when you return the stem to the winding position it would re engage for a few turns until it locks up again... Could explain what you are seeing?

Hopefully this is a reasonably quick check as you may not have to take the keyless assembly apart and fight the yolk spring 

Other thing that came to mind is the automatic works, if this has an issue it can sometimes lock up the winding mechanism, but not sure if your movement has an automatic works... Worth a try.

Took the movement out of the case, replaced the stem with a fresh one and winding worked without issues. Replaced the original stem and winding now works perfectly. I do not want to put the movement back in the case just yet as the issue may crop up again. Need some guidance here as to what I should check - I am still thinking keyless works, but I have little experience on ETA 2892s.

[Waggy]

Thinking outside the box here.... Have you checked the underside/inside of the crown to make sure there isn't a seal ring or debris there so that when it is pushed over the tube it causes excessive friction? Sometimes on a Seiko you cannot quick change the day by pushing the crown in, thinking along those lines... Long shot, but could explain why it is acting differently inside and outside that case.

[k3l3k]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Thinking outside the box here.... Have you checked the underside/inside of the crown to make sure there isn't a seal ring or debris there so that when it is pushed over the tube it causes excessive friction? Sometimes on a Seiko you cannot quick change the day by pushing the crown in, thinking along those lines... Long shot, but could explain why it is acting differently inside and outside that case.

Many thanks for your inputs. The crown and pendant are clean. However,  while taking out the movement from the case, I noticed that the movement clamps although tight on he movement had a very slight gap where they sit on the case seat. The case is a top entry case i.e. the movement goes in from the top and are held by case clamps on the rotor side. Not sure why there is a slight gap, perhaps the clamps have bent slightly with age. I am wondering if there is an offset between the stem hole on the movement and the stem hole on the case and if this could cause the tightness as with the movement out of the case, there are no winding issues. This time when I mount the movement back, I will check of any offset between the stem hole on the case and the movement. Waiting for some pointers to check. 

[k3l3k]

Coming back to this topic again. I put together this watch again couple of weeks ago and everything was working fine until today when I noticed that at the second crown position the second hand is no longer stopping. I recall that this hacking issue occurred shortly before the issue mentioned in the OP (which does not exist at the moment). The watch is keeping very good time and the keyless mechanism works as expected except for the hacking, but I am worried that the OP issue may return back. 

I read somewhere that on a ETA 2892 the balance stop lever is held by a part of the rotor assembly unit. If this is correct could I have a picture of which part this is (I am relatively inexperienced on this movement). Just want to make sure that the rotor assembly is not loose putting the hacking lever out of place. 

If this is not so, please could i have pointers on what to check?

[Kalanag]

The hacking lever is held in place by the automatic module. It can only be dislodged if the complete automatic module is loose.

The screws are here:

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Kalanag

[k3l3k]

OK. Thanks.

27 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

The hacking lever is held in place by the automatic module. It can only be dislodged if the complete automatic module is loose.

 

I have checked and the automatic module is not loose. What else could cause the hacking to not work in an ETA 2892? Some direction would be useful. 

[Jon]

12 minutes ago, k3l3k said:

OK. Thanks.

I have checked and the automatic module is not loose. What else could cause the hacking to not work in an ETA 2892? Some direction would be useful. 

The only way to know for sure is to remove the auto module then you'll see what the stop lever is doing, or in this case, not doing. It could have jumped out from the indentation of the clutch, or it could have bent or broken It could even have come off its post for some reason.