Omega caliber 601 problem.

[Gaus]

Hello watchfriends, I have serviced an Omega dynamic caliber 601. After reassembly the watch runs very nice for two days. After winding it again it won't run???? It seems to be very nice in beat. After removing the pallets, the wheels seem to run freely.  What can cause this suddenly problem. Could a bad mainspring be the problem?

Thank you all for your help in advance.

[watchweasol]

Hi a little bit of history on the watch and also some pictures.  From what you describe it may be a bit of floating debris. Bent tooth cracked tooth binding mainspring in the barrel, the list could go on ,  best approach is to dismantle again and inspect each bit as you put it together, did you remove/replace mainspring, ?  Best guess mainspring binding as it only occurs when you wind it up again check it out,  if you re placed/refitted mainspring did you use a winder or your hands.

[Gaus]

Hello Watchweasol, I didn't replace the mainspring, because I wanted to know if the watch would run at all. I used a mainspringwinder to refitt the spring.

In the meantime I have ordered a new spring.

 

[mikepilk]

53 minutes ago, Gaus said:

Hello Watchweasol, I didn't replace the mainspring, because I wanted to know if the watch would run at all. I used a mainspringwinder to refitt the spring.

In the meantime I have ordered a new spring.

 

Unlikely the mainspring causing that sort of problem, unless the end has broken. Can you feel tension as you wind?

Do you have a pic of the old mainspring?

Is it running with dial and hands on ?

 

[watchweasol]

As you have ordered a mainspring we will start with that, make sure the barrel is clean and lubricated, check thr barrel bearings for sideshake causing a miss lock and barrel teeth for wear , bent , or cracked, when spring fitted  go from there

[Gaus]

Okay, I will do that first. Thank you.

[anilv]

On 8/26/2023 at 12:12 AM, watchweasol said:

As you have ordered a mainspring we will start with that, make sure the barrel is clean and lubricated, check thr barrel bearings for sideshake causing a miss lock and barrel teeth for wear , bent , or cracked, when spring fitted  go from there

This.

Also assemble the train wheels (no pallet and balance)and put about about a half wind on the ratchet wheel. The wheels should spin.. once they stop, try to help them restart by using an oiler on the spoke of one of the wheel.. if it runs a bit you have a power transmission issue.

Good luck!

Anilv

[Gaus]

Hello, I took some time because of vacation. I cleaned and lubricated the barrel (looked okay) en placed a new mainspring. I assembled the movement (wheels where running free).  I gave the movement a wind and it started running very well. After about 48 hours the watch stopped running. Again I gave it a full wind and it started running. Again for about 48 hours. But now, after about 25 hours it stops running. I have wind it again, and now I will wait how long it will run.  Probably the mainspringbarrel causes this problem anyway, I think. 

[Nucejoe]

 The drive gear for seconds arbour is a culprit on these.

As a test, eliminate sweep arbour, it should run full 48hrs then.

Rgds

 

[Gaus]

Hello Nucejoe, thank you for your advice. Is this a common problem with the 601? Is replacing the second pinion (with gear) the solution? Causes this strange spring the problem? 

[Nucejoe]

 Hello Gaus,  

Its a culprit we create.

 The center hole of minute wheel somewhat wears out with every remov-replace, plus some risk of bending the extended pivot of third wheel or distortion of minute wheel. 

Peening the center hole often works, minute wheel can be poised, but much can't be done to un- wear the wear caused by remov-replace.  

The spring on sweep second pivot is there to keep the sweep hand from gittering.

You can find several discussion on WRT forum, reporting success with use of presto hand remover.

Rgds

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Nucejoe

[Nucejoe]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:49 PM, PaulC said:

Hi all,

Stripping down an Omega Seamaster, Cal. 351. The movement is filthy (S/N = 1947 manufacture and it looks like it not been serviced since!).

Everything going swimmingly until now: the third wheel is below the train bridge, with what Omega parts list calls a ‘driving wheel for 3rd wheel’ sitting above the bridge - see picture.

I saw something sort of similar on a Phenix cal 180 recently where there was an intermediate bridge between the ‘driving wheel’ and the third wheel - in that case the driving wheel simply lifted off with no manipulation.

This one is not moving (al least it is, but locked into the third wheel below) - and I am very wary of exerting any force, obviously.

Is it simply held in by ‘gunk’ or am I missing something blindingly obvious. And if it is old oil that’s gone hard, how to loosen without snapping/bending the pivot of the driving wheel?

All and any ideas very welcome.

.......Paul (Northampton)

Here is one such discussion .

[nevenbekriev]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:55 PM, Gaus said:

...After removing the pallets, the wheels seem to run freely. ... Could a bad mainspring be the problem?

Well, no. It is not the mainspring.

You have to learn how to investigate such unexpected problems.

Most important here is to open the back verry carefully so not to cause the movement to start working again without haveing oportunity to understand where the problem is.

Then, You need to understand if the escape wheel is powered or not. If no momentum goes to the escape wheel, then balance will be able to oscillate several times from gentle shake, the pallet wil move from one side to another and the 'scape wheel will move a little forward and reverse, but this movement will be causet by the pallets and not by the train. In this case, the stopp is somewhere between the mainspring and he escape wheel. In some cases momentum may go to the 'scape wheel, but reduced and not enough for keeping the work of the escapement. Then shaking will make the movement work, but with small amplitude and may be it will stop again soon. And may be the amplitude will start to gain and after some time, it will rise to normal.

There is another group of problems, that are connected with the escapement itself. For example: the balance seems blocked in position different than it's zero position, and even strong shake doesn't move it. Forcing the balance to zero position or taking it out and putting it on again unlocks the escapement and the movement starts running normally

So You first task is to understand which group You have

[VWatchie]

Here are two videos I found very useful for troubleshooting, despite having serviced and repaired watches for over six years.

 

[JohnR725]

On 10/9/2023 at 2:11 AM, Gaus said:

I gave the movement a wind and it started running very well. After about 48 hours the watch stopped running. Again I gave it a full wind and it started running. Again for about 48 hours. But now, after about 25 hours it stops running. I have wind it again, and now I will wait how long it will run.  Probably the mainspringbarrel causes this problem anyway, I think. 

Is it just the bare movement or is it in the case with the hands dial etc.? Then I don't suppose you have access to a timing machine? Really nice for diagnosing running problems helps to show things you can't see with your eyes

On 8/25/2023 at 7:55 AM, Gaus said:

I have serviced an Omega dynamic caliber 601.

What was the condition of the watch before it was serviced? The definition of servicing involves taking it apart perhaps cleaning how and what lubrication's did you use?

35 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Here are two videos I found very useful for troubleshooting, despite having serviced and repaired watches for over six years.

One of the problems with self taught watch repair is your learning how to service but it's not necessarily structured learning. In other words you've learned how to disassemble and reassemble a watch have you learned well all the things outlined below?

52 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

You have to learn how to investigate such unexpected problems.

Most important here is to open the back verry carefully so not to cause the movement to start working again without haveing oportunity to understand where the problem is.

Then, You need to understand if the escape wheel is powered or not. If no momentum goes to the escape wheel, then balance will be able to oscillate several times from gentle shake, the pallet wil move from one side to another and the 'scape wheel will move a little forward and reverse, but this movement will be causet by the pallets and not by the train. In this case, the stopp is somewhere between the mainspring and he escape wheel. In some cases momentum may go to the 'scape wheel, but reduced and not enough for keeping the work of the escapement. Then shaking will make the movement work, but with small amplitude and may be it will stop again soon. And may be the amplitude will start to gain and after some time, it will rise to normal.

There is another group of problems, that are connected with the escapement itself. For example: the balance seems blocked in position different than it's zero position, and even strong shake doesn't move it. Forcing the balance to zero position or taking it out and putting it on again unlocks the escapement and the movement starts running normally

So You first task is to understand which group You have

Interesting theory you have here you do know that cleaning fixes all problems don't you? Go on look at the discussions on this group typically people start off with cleaning a watch because that fixes everything. It's only When cleaning doesn't fix the problem with this the fun begin.

In order to understand how to troubleshoot something you would have to understand how it actually works. This is why made the reference to structured learning versus independent study. The independent study here people learn how to take a watch apart and clean it they do not necessarily understand how it works. Versus in a classroom situation depending upon the school classroom and/or instructor it typically learn how the watch works. Understanding how the watch works how the escapement works how to adjust the escapement etc. all help for troubleshooting problems.

Oh and your troubleshooting method reminds me of I took electronics before he took watch repair. They had something called a half split rule it basically divided item in half and see if one side or the other works. For the most part I don't use the half split rule it just isn't what I use but. I did use it once for a peculiar software problem and it brought up another problem. It turns out I Dividing the item in half and the very last section is where the problem what's.

 

In order to do troubleshooting you would have to understand how the watch works. This is why made the reference to structured learning versus learn as you go where you'd typically are really learning other than how to take a watch apart put it back together which is a good thing to learn because breaking things is very very bad. But typically people don't take the time to study how all watch works are all of the aspects of the watch. Versus in classroom situations where they can go through all of this in a structured way. In other words you get the learn every single aspect of the watch plot it also depends upon which school you go to and even the instructor can make a big difference

This is why made the reference to structured learning wares in a classroom situation depending upon the school he went to when you went etc. etc. But a lot of schools they do have structured learning you learn how the watch works you learn how the escapement works you learn how to adjust things you don't necessarily learn how to troubleshoot. Because often times and factory settings they don't have to troubleshoot they just replace everything.

Oh and then in watch repair for troubleshooting providing you grasp its usefulness and did not become a slave to it timing machines can quite helpful. Because there's a lot of problems it only will show up on a timing machine unfortunately not all problems show up on a timing machine you can still have problems the timing machine may or may not show them unfortunately.

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Interesting theory you have here you do know that cleaning fixes all problems don't you? Go on look at the discussions on this group typically people start off with cleaning a watch because that fixes everything. It's only When cleaning doesn't fix the problem with this the fun begin.

In order to understand how to troubleshoot something you would have to understand how it actually works. This is why made the reference to structured learning versus independent study. The independent study here people learn how to take a watch apart and clean it they do not necessarily understand how it works. Versus in a classroom situation depending upon the school classroom and/or instructor it typically learn how the watch works. Understanding how the watch works how the escapement works how to adjust the escapement etc. all help for troubleshooting problems.

Oh and your troubleshooting method reminds me of I took electronics before he took watch repair. They had something called a half split rule it basically divided item in half and see if one side or the other works. For the most part I don't use the half split rule it just isn't what I use but. I did use it once for a peculiar software problem and it brought up another problem. It turns out I Dividing the item in half and the very last section is where the problem what's.

 

In order to do troubleshooting you would have to understand how the watch works. This is why made the reference to structured learning versus learn as you go where you'd typically are really learning other than how to take a watch apart put it back together which is a good thing to learn because breaking things is very very bad. But typically people don't take the time to study how all watch works are all of the aspects of the watch. Versus in classroom situations where they can go through all of this in a structured way. In other words you get the learn every single aspect of the watch plot it also depends upon which school you go to and even the instructor can make a big difference

This is why made the reference to structured learning wares in a classroom situation depending upon the school he went to when you went etc. etc. But a lot of schools they do have structured learning you learn how the watch works you learn how the escapement works you learn how to adjust things you don't necessarily learn how to troubleshoot. Because often times and factory settings they don't have to troubleshoot they just replace everything.

Oh and then in watch repair for troubleshooting providing you grasp its usefulness and did not become a slave to it timing machines can quite helpful. Because there's a lot of problems it only will show up on a timing machine unfortunately not all problems show up on a timing machine you can still have problems the timing machine may or may not show them unfortunately.

Hi John,

Too many words saying one and the same, but it is a good point... if I was a newbie... Sorry, I am not a newbie. If You don't believe me, take a look for example  here. It is in Russian, but there are pictures.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Too many words saying one and the same, but it is a good point

On a message board like this everybody does things differently I use dictation software and my answers are always typically long is just who the heck I am. But if you do find my answer too long for your liking there is a solution to the problem just let me know and I will fix it for you as there's a setting on the message board for this sort of thing.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by JohnR725

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

In order to understand how to troubleshoot something you would have to understand how it actually works.

Even though what you are saying is obvious, it is well worth emphasizing. If you're not willing to invest the time and effort into figuring out how things work you are going to meet with limited success. There was a time when I believed, or perhaps hoped, that most problems would resolve themselves with just cleaning, oiling, and reassembling, but of course, that is not the case, and had it been, watch repairing would not have been very engaging.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

There was a time when I believed, or perhaps hoped, that most problems would resolve themselves with just cleaning, oiling, and reassembling 

How super optimistic of you watchie . When i started collecting i thought all i would have to do is buy a strap put it on and away wearing it i would go

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Even though what you are saying is obvious, it is well worth emphasizing. If you're not willing to invest the time and effort into figuring out how things work you are going to meet with limited success. There was a time when I believed, or perhaps hoped, that most problems would resolve themselves with just cleaning, oiling, and reassembling, but of course, that is not the case, and had it been, watch repairing would not have been very engaging.

It may be obvious but it tends to be a very long road to grasp that at least from learning on your own.

Then often times even if you did take a class you still may not learn problem-solving. You might learn all the aspects of the watch How to adjust everything how everything works but not necessarily working on a watch that has a problem other than something introduced by your instructor.

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

When i started collecting

A lot of times when people start collecting they start collecting a running watches so putting a strap on a running watch makes logical sense.

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How super optimistic of you watchie

Not really. A lot of it's about timing if you started collecting watches that had been serviced with organic lubricants which do have outstanding properties over synthetics. Synthetics have a habit of just running away and not doing the job organics can get sticky stopping the watch. Those watches typically cleaning will fix the problem possibly a mainspring. This is why we have quite a few watches out there that just need cleaning. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

This is why we have quite a few watches out there that just need cleaning. 

That is until watch breakers get hold of them .

[Gaus]

Gentlemen,

Just to be clear. I studied how a timepiece works and how you can detect and repair malfunctions. For example, I followed, among others, the full training with Mark Lovick. So normally I can search for errors in a very structured way and then fix them. But you encounter situations where knowledge/experience is insufficient. Then it is very nice to consult and learn from forums like this.

In the meantime I checked the Omega 601  for 6 days now. The first time it runs for 38 hours, afther the secon full wind its runs for 46 hours and after the third full wind it runs for 48 hours.  Perhaps I was to impatient after the service (new mainspring). 

But I want to thank you all very much for the tips and advice.

 

Gr. Hans

[VWatchie]

@Gaus You should not interpret our posts as us slamming you. You should only see it as an expression of our frustration at not being able to assist you more concretely.

Developing an effective method for finding what causes errors is a process that takes time, experience, will, and patience that I believe even Sherlock Holmes would have envied.

Here is just one example of how incredibly tricky it can be to find a fault.

Unfortunately, how long your 601 ticks gives no useful clues at all. The main tip is that you are as concrete and detailed as possible when looking for help and preferably include pictures. You will be amazed at all the "hawk eyes" on this forum.