Oil is oil or is it??

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Thinking about contact angle and other lubrication properties there is a book. Book seems expensive but you have a preview here you get see if first about 111 pages with all sorts of lubrication details. We also get the contact angle of some popular oils. Plus all sorts of other interesting specifications.

https://books.google.com/books?id=1awuxJ5v2ucC&pg=PA40&dq=Contact+angle+9010+Moebius&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu3rD-3LGBAxUkIDQIHXIGBQkQ6AF6BAgFEAE#v=onepage&q=Contact angle 9010 Moebius&f=false

 

Nice one John . My printer is worn out from reproducing all the information you come up with.

[Swefiddler]

I had high hopes for this thread, but unfortunately it seems to have died off. 

I am a dedicated hobbyist, and i looked at this issue form a specification perspective. In all other applications the manufacturer specifies a spec to be used in order to keep the item functional. Not so with watch lubrication. In this bussines the products from moebius have become the de-facto standard. It´s not clear to me why this is, but the dominance of the swatch group in combination with the ownership of the moebius company might play a part in this. The oiling charts avaliable in the public space all recommend moebius product, and why not promote your own product? 

So if we look at what we want for lubrication there are a few parameters to take into account.

1. Viscosity. We need a sufficient viscosity to keep metal from touching metal, and at the same time a low as possible viscosity to minimize friction.

2. Surface tension. The normal oil surface tension number is somewere between 30-35. The moebius TDS specifies some basic values, and for the synt-hp series this value is 33-34.

3. Stability. The perfect oil has the same properties regardless of temperature. This is however not possible to achive. The properties will change, and the goal is to find a stable as possible product to do the job. 

4. "Hi pressure applications". The power developed in a mechanical watch are in the order of microwatt, and the higest load happens on the surface of the teeth of the wheels, and as we all know, wheels are not lubricated. The remaining parts under some sort of stress are pivots of the wheels and the arbor of the mainspring. Compared to an industrial hi load application, this is mere a fraction of what modern oils can whitstand.

This makes me wonder if we really need a "thick oil", as todays modern HP low viscosity produckts seems to do the trick, and we don´t want to add extra friction if it can be avoided. SYNT HP has very high viscosity, and its not perfectly clear to me that it is needed.

My goal is to find an oil specifiation that can replace 9010. So lets look at what we know about 9010.  

From 9010 TDS values can be extracted.

9010 @ 0°C = 625 cSt

9010 @ 20°C = 150 cSt, verified DIN 51 562

9010 @ 40°C = 52 cSt

Acidity 2.4 mg KOH / g

Acidity on 9010 is high. This value should be as low as possible.  

So what alternatives are availible? There are a lot of product on the market. I have selected a product from the AeroShell range of products, as these meets the highest standards available. Extensiv testing data is available, and presented in Areoshell documenatation available online. 

ASDU @ 0°C = 450 cSt

ASDU @ 20°C = 150 cSt, verified ASTM D445

ASDU @ 40°C = 68 cSt, verified ASTM D445

The ASDU meets and exceeds the properties of 9010. It is slightly higher viscosity @40C, meets the viscosity @20 and has a lower viscosity @0C. This indicates that ASDU is a more consistent product within a reasonable temp range.

The specification for ASDU are :

ACEA: Meets the requirements of A3/B4 · API Meets the requirements of SL/CF · SAE: Viscosity grade 5W-30

Conclusion

Aeroshell Diesel ultra can replace 9010. In theory could any oil specified as above do the trick, but i guess the products on the market are at the end of the day slightly different.

My replacement for 9010 is AeroShell Diesel Ultra. If it´s good enough for aviation, it´s good enough for watshmaking.
And it has worked perfect so far.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, Swefiddler said:

I had high hopes for this thread, but unfortunately it seems to have died off. 

I am a dedicated hobbyist, and i looked at this issue form a specification perspective. In all other applications the manufacturer specifies a spec to be used in order to keep the item functional. Not so with watch lubrication. In this bussines the products from moebius have become the de-facto standard. It´s not clear to me why this is, but the dominance of the swatch group in combination with the ownership of the moebius company might play a part in this. The oiling charts avaliable in the public space all recommend moebius product, and why not promote your own product? 

So if we look at what we want for lubrication there are a few parameters to take into account.

1. Viscosity. We need a sufficient viscosity to keep metal from touching metal, and at the same time a low as possible viscosity to minimize friction.

2. Surface tension. The normal oil surface tension number is somewere between 30-35. The moebius TDS specifies some basic values, and for the synt-hp series this value is 33-34.

3. Stability. The perfect oil has the same properties regardless of temperature. This is however not possible to achive. The properties will change, and the goal is to find a stable as possible product to do the job. 

4. "Hi pressure applications". The power developed in a mechanical watch are in the order of microwatt, and the higest load happens on the surface of the teeth of the wheels, and as we all know, wheels are not lubricated. The remaining parts under some sort of stress are pivots of the wheels and the arbor of the mainspring. Compared to an industrial hi load application, this is mere a fraction of what modern oils can whitstand.

This makes me wonder if we really need a "thick oil", as todays modern HP low viscosity produckts seems to do the trick, and we don´t want to add extra friction if it can be avoided. SYNT HP has very high viscosity, and its not perfectly clear to me that it is needed.

My goal is to find an oil specifiation that can replace 9010. So lets look at what we know about 9010.  

From 9010 TDS values can be extracted.

9010 @ 0°C = 625 cSt

9010 @ 20°C = 150 cSt, verified DIN 51 562

9010 @ 40°C = 52 cSt

Acidity 2.4 mg KOH / g

Acidity on 9010 is high. This value should be as low as possible.  

So what alternatives are availible? There are a lot of product on the market. I have selected a product from the AeroShell range of products, as these meets the highest standards available. Extensiv testing data is available, and presented in Areoshell documenatation available online. 

ASDU @ 0°C = 450 cSt

ASDU @ 20°C = 150 cSt, verified ASTM D445

ASDU @ 40°C = 68 cSt, verified ASTM D445

The ASDU meets and exceeds the properties of 9010. It is slightly higher viscosity @40C, meets the viscosity @20 and has a lower viscosity @0C. This indicates that ASDU is a more consistent product within a reasonable temp range.

The specification for ASDU are :

ACEA: Meets the requirements of A3/B4 · API Meets the requirements of SL/CF · SAE: Viscosity grade 5W-30

Conclusion

Aeroshell Diesel ultra can replace 9010. In theory could any oil specified as above do the trick, but i guess the products on the market are at the end of the day slightly different.

My replacement for 9010 is AeroShell Diesel Ultra. If it´s good enough for aviation, it´s good enough for watshmaking.
And it has worked perfect so far.

 

Depends whereabouts and to what applications certain aviation oil is used. A big difference between the inner workings of a watch and the majority of other machinery is that there are parts in there that shouldn't have oil on them. Typical machinery, like say an engine of some description needs oil to reach everywhere, and where it doesn't need oil... those parts would be sealed off and isolated.  In a watch all of the parts are exposed to each other at very close proximity,without the correct type of oil that can stay in place , it can spread from one area to another quickly. Thick oil stays put,  thin oil will wander without an additive to keep it in place. Micro machinery is another ball game, I expect there might be some small stuff in aviation just the same, but does that also require a special expensive oil. 

High pressure oil.....contact surfaces in a watch are much smaller than typical machinery. Would forces be comparable taking that into account ?

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

My goal is to find an oil specifiation that can replace 9010. 

I'm confused as to why?  Do you think that it doesn't do a good job, are they selling us a dud? Too expensive?

As you say, it's the de-facto standard in the industry, and has been for years, so If it doesn't work well as a lubricant, doesn't last as long as advertised, or causes damage etc, why haven't we seen it?   In which case someone else would have produced a better product and taken the market.

You may have found a cheaper alternative where the available parameters match, but oil formulation is complex, you may be missing some crucial components.  I remember the days when car oil changes could be 3-5000 miles. Modern oils have extended that to 20,000 miles+.  Looking at the viscosity and specs doesn't explain how that is achieved. 

It may be that you are right, and they are just packaging 'standard' oil and selling it at vastly increased prices, but as 2ml of 9010 costs about £20, and it lasts me for many years, I think I'll stick with it. 

BTW I do use Molykote DX as a cheaper grease alternative 

Anyone know a triboligist?

[RichardHarris123]

I buy generic over the counter medication, the active ingredients are exactly the same at a fraction of the cost of branded items.  Does the same apply to lubricants, are they exactly the same or as close as to not make a difference?  The only way to know for sure is through experimentation.  I have to agree with @mikepilk, 9010 is expensive but will last many years. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I buy generic over the counter medication, the active ingredients are exactly the same at a fraction of the cost of branded items.  Does the same apply to lubricants, are they exactly the same or as close as to not make a difference?  The only way to know for sure is through experimentation.  I have to agree with @mikepilk, 9010 is expensive but will last many years. 

The cost saved for your own use will never be worth the effort to find out.  Unless you intend to buy 50 gal oil drums to decanter into 2ml vials and flock it to us peasant hobbyists

[RichardHarris123]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The cost saved for your own use will never be worth the effort to find out.  Unless you intend to buy 50 gal oil drums to decanter into 2ml vials and flock it to us peasant hobbyists

I have a 50 gallon drum of fresh air, you can have it for only £ 600 , oops we shouldn't mention money. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I have a 50 gallon drum of fresh air, you can have it for only £ 600 , oops we shouldn't mention money. 

Is it genuine Swiss Bergeon imported air ?  how much to filI up my air puffers ?

[RichardHarris123]

Only £50 a pop. Now I am warning myself that I must get back on track.  Richard Harris, 1 warning point. Oops. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

The oiling charts avaliable in the public space all recommend moebius product, and why not promote your own product? 

The problem with recommending your own products would be who exactly are these people that are not recommending their products? Then yes there are other companies that manufacture horological lubrication. 

Problem is lubrication recommendations typically come from tech sheets. Tech sheets typically come from companies big enough to supply spare parts and allow you to service their watches. So basically the most commonplace that you would find specifications would be like citizen and Seiko at one time both specified their own oils. The Swiss typically only like to embrace Swiss products which would be basically one company.

Of this hasn't always been true for the Swiss in the past there were other recommendations including the US products. What the problem is a lot of the US companies don't seem to be making lubrication anymore for instance a very highly recommended lubrication is Elgin oil made by the Elgin watch company it's actually superior to the Swiss. Not only is superior but when it was being made it was actually being shipped to Switzerland.  this is because Elgin made synthetic watch oil before the Swiss did. But Elgin doesn't seem to be making a horological products right now it seems to be? But don't worry a product is highly regarded as this has been synthesized and I'm attaching the PDF of specifications. As far as I know the German company which is still manufacturing horological products although the last time I looked at the website really sucked for promoting those products. Now the problem with this oil was the last time of the only time I saw it for sale in the US it was at least $100 for little tiny bottle. It's hard enough to convince people by a little tiny bottle at the price we pay now and then paying two or three times that well that's going to be a problem.

 

4 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

My goal is to find an oil specifiation that can replace 9010. So lets look at what we know about 9010.  

So basically this is really simple for instance I don't have any 9010 on my bench. That's because I embrace 9020 as I think it's a superior lubrication with no loss of amplitude typically. Or that German company a lot of people use their products so yes there are replacements.

Then thinking about replacements?

5 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

My goal is to find an oil specifiation that can replace 9010. So lets look at what we know about 9010.  

From 9010 TDS values can be extracted.

9010 @ 0°C = 625 cSt

9010 @ 20°C = 150 cSt, verified DIN 51 562

9010 @ 40°C = 52 cSt

Acidity 2.4 mg KOH / g

Acidity on 9010 is high. This value should be as low as possible.  

So what alternatives are availible? There are a lot of product on the market. I have selected a product from the AeroShell range of products, as these meets the highest standards available. Extensiv testing data is available, and presented in Areoshell documenatation available online. 

Okay now we have a problem not enough  specifications here. So basically we get a viscosity which is extremely unhelpful and some other spec which I suppose is nice but where your other specifications? Let me give you an example of specifications that you're missing because viscosity sucks his specification sort of. I found this on another discussion group a long time ago

Okay so what do we have well the natural oil would be I believe 8000. It's a very popular oil because it's really cheap. Unfortunately it's also a natural product so it as poor characteristics. So when you look at the chart you see a talk about friction then they have contact angle which I think is extremely important number as I believe it relates to how an oil or lubrication spreads. Then long term spread test which is really one of the most important things. Horological lubrication has to stay in place long term in other words if you're servicing a watch like a modern automatic watch it needs to stay in place at least five years preferably longer. So conceivably could have the right viscosity and maybe a superior lubricant but if it spreads and is gone fast it's worthless.

Oh and then there's the other little problem before we finish the chart. If you have a modern synthetic oil that's absolutely perfect but it spreads superfast how exactly do you know that? In the early days of natural lubricants they had an outstanding property when they went bad of typically getting sticky and stopping the watch. Synthetic lubricants have a habit of spreading with time no longer doing their job and customers who don't want to get their watch fixed and soon especially metal on metal the watch will disintegrate. Very common with early automatic watches that had a lot of metal on metal bearings. He often see this and discussion groups for people are bragging about not paying the greedy watchmaker they've run the Rolex for 30 years unfortunately the guy get a heckuva sticker shock when they get that watch fixed and they discover it's disintegrated all because the lubrication is no longer where it's supposed to be. Plus thrown in that the gaskets after 30 years have disintegrated and moisture got in and is now grinding what's left of the pivots

okay now next oil is the Elgin 56 – B notice the very low contact angles notice excellent for long-term spreading and this is the Elgin oil that was synthesized by the Germans. Which reminds me if you look at the PDF attached We get a viscosity of 125 slightly thinner than 9010 personally be happy if it was slightly thicker than 9010 as I still perceive viscosity as even though I know it's really contact angle. Then notice the comments all just paste here how does your lubrication compared to this?

Now back to the chart down below notice the all favorite 9010 is listed. Also noticed that it really isn't a spectacular lubrication at all. Plus the Hamilton PML oil that looks really promising.  Then it's a shame the 9020 isn't listed I suspect it was listed it would actually look quite good because from personal experience it doesn't spread as fast as 9010.

6 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

My replacement for 9010 is AeroShell Diesel Ultra. If it´s good enough for aviation, it´s good enough for watshmaking.
And it has worked perfect so far.

Then to avoid up problem which is quoted below you're not allowed to promote your own product so I assume you do not actually manufacture this or sell it. It's an aviation product where exactly what I purchased this anyway? Plus the unfortunate problem of really validate in the horological lubrication you would have to have tested it for quite a number of years. So short-term it might look outstanding but what does it look like   at least five years from now?

27 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

you can have it for only £ 600 , oops we shouldn't mention money. 

I think if you read the fine print mentioning money is not a problem.  the fine print basically says you're not supposed to profit in a monetary way off of the discussion group. Which of course does bring up a problem of anyone on the group who is repairing or generating any money from  the knowledge they learned on the group is profiting in a monetary way. But the real interpretation is you're not allowed to sell a product on  this discussion group.

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Too expensive?

Typically in a horological discussion group expressly for relatively new people or any of us there is quite a sticker shock at the price of a little tiny bottle of oil. For instance let's go to Amazon and let me look for 9010 and let's get an image. First we end up with a confusion of two versions of 9010 at differing prices and differing Reviews? Okay reading the fine print of the third oil it appears to be at least in the way the bottles labeled identical to the Swiss version of it sizes Swiss version I assume it's the same thing is just being sold at a cheaper price but I do have to wonder if it's  a clone or a counterfeit product?

Okay but back to the discussion the middle oil that looks right and it costs $46.95 for 2 mL. The problem is people don't really look at the cost properly. For instance yes I used to use 9010 and  how long did my bottle last before I replaced it? Many years ago I replaced all my horological lubrication's because somebody at a meeting suggested that they should be replaced from time to time. I then decided that I really don't have to replace my oil unless there's indication of a problem because typically now I only do personal watches. But back to the original question how long did the first bottle last we lubricating a watch you're not using very much at all so it seems like a really tiny bottle really isn't considering the quantity you use is extremely tiny. I don't know if anyone's ever figured out how many watches a lubricated but the cost per watch basis it's not very much at all.

But typically that's not the way people look at they look at it and say oh my goodness if I was to change the oil in my car it would cost $1 trillion I am obviously getting ripped off that would be the biggest problem.

Oh and then there is my other amusement with pricing look at the far left hand product look at all the oil you're getting you getting everything to service your watch. Then yes I've seen these kits show up on eBay so somebody is broken apart the bottles they probably bought 20 mL bottles which are cheaper than the 2 mL bottles at a cost per milliliter not for the bottle of course then they repackaged in little tiny bottles and on the surface it looks like it's a good price but if you were to figure out what it cost per milliliter at least the last time I checked the price sucks. So basically it looks on the surface to be a good price could you get a whole bunch of oil you just not getting very much of it. Possibly good if you only one oil one watch you're not really sure if you want to get seriously in the watch repair.

 

6 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

My replacement for 9010 is AeroShell Diesel Ultra. If it´s good enough for aviation, it´s good enough for watshmaking.
And it has worked perfect so far.

 

Now we run into a problem? Suppose somebody agrees with you and would like to purchase some they can't purchase it from you because that would conflict with the rules the messageboard. So going the Amazon seeing as how I can buy watch oil we did run into a minor problem of typical Amazon for confusion like far left-hand side grease is not what it is so it looks like it's it's the middle product and We run into a tiny problem. Apparently have to buy an entire case and okay I guess on a cost basis it would be better it's an initial a higher investment but I would get equivalent of 4 1/2 bottles of 9010. On the other hand since I don't use 9010 it's not a problem which means I'm not going by the replacement either as a be a waste of my money. But it's going to be a really hard sell on the group if people Purchase the replacements conveniently and cheaply. Then just as a reminder for those enterprising souls you can't purchase this and repackage it and sell it on the group. But maybe you could sell it on eBay looks like a good moneymaking opportunity here.

 

Elgin Watch Oil TS5500EN.pdf

[Swefiddler]

17 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 Thick oil stays put,  thin oil will wander without an additive to keep it in place. Micro machinery is another ball game, I expect there might be some small stuff in aviation just the same, but does that also require a special expensive oil. 

High pressure oil.....contact surfaces in a watch are much smaller than typical machinery. Would forces be comparable taking that into account ?

Actually, no. Thick oil also wanders. If you need the lube to stay in a specific place, you need grease. 
The real problem is over oiling and dirt. As long as the oil is bound by the capilary force (surface or bearing), the oil will stay in place, bind to the object and form a lubricating film. Dirt will absorb oil, drawing it away from its intended place and create grinding paste, leaving the bearing dry. There are Moebius oils for cold weather with significantly lower visco than 9010 (9030, 9040) and they are also kept in place with no problem.

There are no hidden feature in the moebius oils that stops them from wandering or sticking in a special manner. The properties are the same as for other oils, and the only way to stop wandering from happening is correct oiling practice and surface treatment. I also don´t like the dye in the moebius oils. It is an added substance without lubricating properties and it does nothing for the operation of the movement. The ETA 2824 service manual specifies the colorless SC variant in some applications, but from what i can tell, the most popular youtube horologist doesn´t seems to use it, they just go ordinary HP 1300 for all applications. AeroShell doesn´t have any added dye.

The contact surfaces are smaller, yes. The teeth in particular, and they are not lubricated, obviously not a problem. High pressure really only occures in the winding works, and the teeths of the winding pinion are actually to be lubed with grease according to the ETA 2824 service manual. For this purpose i use AeroShell grease 33. I have a lifetime+ supply...

Small stuff in aviation? Yes. The avionics (Mechanical instruments etc) needs lubrication and AeroShell products are recommended by major manufacturers and are also mil spec.  

 

14 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I'm confused as to why?  Do you think that it doesn't do a good job, are they selling us a dud? Too expensive?

As you say, it's the de-facto standard in the industry, and has been for years, so If it doesn't work well as a lubricant, doesn't last as long as advertised, or causes damage etc, why haven't we seen it?   In which case someone else would have produced a better product and taken the market.

You may have found a cheaper alternative where the available parameters match, but oil formulation is complex, you may be missing some crucial components.  I remember the days when car oil changes could be 3-5000 miles. Modern oils have extended that to 20,000 miles+.  Looking at the viscosity and specs doesn't explain how that is achieved. 

It may be that you are right, and they are just packaging 'standard' oil and selling it at vastly increased prices, but as 2ml of 9010 costs about £20, and it lasts me for many years, I think I'll stick with it. 

BTW I do use Molykote DX as a cheaper grease alternative 

Anyone know a triboligist?

Well, why not? When bying oil for your car, you look for spec, say 5w-30. Doesnt matter if it´s Mobile, Shell, Castrol etc. But in watchmaking it´s Moebius. I totaly get it that the watchmaking scene is quite small and the big ones might leave it alone for different reasons. But why not specify oils for horology from a spec, rather than a specific branded product?
There are, of cours practical reasons. Packaging beeing one of them.  

As to why we havent seen any alternatives yet, my answer is that no one rellay challenged it. There is also a lack of info, we only know what ETA uses, and they are for obvious reasons endorsing Moebius products. We know nothing about what other major manufacturers uses for lubrication in what application. I see you are in the UK, and i´d be happy to send you a sample vial of AeroShell if you are interrested to try it out for your self. I checked Molycoat DX at my local supplier and it was €40 for 50g so not exactly cheap. 

Someone mentioned Moebius 9020 as an alternative and sure, nice pick. But look at the properties. The visco @40  is higher, and @20 way higher than 9010. So why go that route? Higher visco = Higher inner resistance. The only reason why to use thicker oil is that higher viscosity can handle more pressure. But the down side is that it adds resistance. You can not have both at the same time. 

My conclusion is that the ASDU has the neccesay properties to handle all applications in the train of wheels. No need for thicker oil from a pressure perspective.

Something on price. It´s not my motivation, but having a liter of ASDU and a cartridge of ASG 33 gives me the opportunity to mix my own lubeta, and i don´t need to worry about having clean oil at any time. Whiping out unused oil from the oiltray is no big deal. Having a 1000 ml instead of 2 at the same price is a good thing. I payed SEK 230, £17, $21, €21 for one liter, shipping to my door included. 

PS Alot of info can be obtained in the AeroShell book available online. DS

 

[mikepilk]

21 minutes ago, Swefiddler said:

I see you are in the UK, and i´d be happy to send you a sample vial of AeroShell if you are interrested to try it out for your self. I checked Molycoat DX at my local supplier and it was €40 for 50g so not exactly cheap. 
 

Thanks for the offer to try it myself, but I would need to test it for 5-8 years to see if was superior to what I use.
To prove your point, you need to get two identical new watches, and lubricate one with Moebius oils, and one with your alternatives. Wear them for about 5 years, strip and inspect. Keep us informed as to how it goes!

Have you looked at Mobil synthetic car oils? - you can probably find one with similar properties at lower cost than aero oils.

Molykote DX prices vary a lot, as it's not that common, but Cousins sells 50g for £12.90 ($16)

[Swefiddler]

2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Thanks for the offer to try it myself, but I would need to test it for 5-8 years to see if was superior to what I use.
To prove your point, you need to get two identical new watches, and lubricate one with Moebius oils, and one with your alternatives. Wear them for about 5 years, strip and inspect. Keep us informed as to how it goes!

Have you looked at Mobil synthetic car oils? - you can probably find one with similar properties at lower cost than aero oils.

Molykote DX prices vary a lot, as it's not that common, but Cousins sells 50g for £12.90 ($16)

I have looked into all the major manufacturers, but i wanted a european one, and shell has the most complete product lineup. I have seen articles online testing Mobil1 with great results, so im sure they also have a hi quality product. The Aeroshell product lineup, however, has the best documentation, most extensive testing, most recommended and has the highest standard of cleanliness. Price is a sligthly higher, but it givs confidence to be able to verify different properties.

There are unverified online articles adressing molycote. The saying goes that MDX has been used previously by major operators, but it has been abandoned as of late, as it contaminates cleaning fluids. No idea if this has any merit, but that might also be something to factor in when selecting the best products for horology. 

Time is another factor. Shelf life for moebius is 4-6 years. For AS it states that a re-test is recommended after 4 years, and that storage conditions has influence on service life. The testing parts for aviation oil seems reasonable. You don´t want to fall out of the sky. In that perspective, a jammed timepiece due to lack of service might not be the end of the world.

Conclusion 1 : Shelf life isn´t neccesarily = service life.
Conclusion 2: timeframe for service of the movement should be somewhere in the 4-6 year range regardless of brand. Oil is after all just oil. 

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Swefiddler said:

we only know what ETA uses, and they are for obvious reasons endorsing Moebius

We also know for several other brands. For example Rolex and Jaeger-LeCoultre. For the thin oils, they all use 9010. That means something. For the thicker ones and greases, Rolex has their own proprietary ones (even if some older service manuals also use some Moebius HP oils).

 

1 hour ago, Swefiddler said:

Someone mentioned Moebius 9020 as an alternative and sure, nice pick. But look at the properties. The visco @40  is higher, and @20 way higher than 9010. So why go that route? Higher visco = Higher inner resistance. The only reason why to use thicker oil is that higher viscosity can handle more pressure. But the down side is that it adds resistance. You can not have both at the same time. 

I'm not an expert, but I think you're underestimating the importance of viscosity for the oils to stay in the correct place. 

The effectiveness of capillary action depends critically on the smallness of the gaps where the oil should stay. The balance jewels have extremely small gaps/tolerances and therefore 9010 is ok. 

Even for the escape wheel, where tolerances and endshake also tend to be very small, Epilame treatment is usually recommended/required. Otherwise it'll creep away. 

If tolerances/gaps/endshake are even marginally wider, further up the train (or older or lower end movements), thicker oils are needed to "bridge" the gaps (i.e. sustain the capillary action). 

[Swefiddler]

1 minute ago, Knebo said:

We also know for several other brands. For example Rolex and Jaeger-LeCoultre. For the thin oils, they all use 9010. That means something. For the thicker ones and greases, Rolex has their own proprietary ones (even if some older service manuals also use some Moebius HP oils).

I have seen some of these documents, yes. But the ones i´ve seen all predates 2008.

[Knebo]

9 minutes ago, Swefiddler said:

I have seen some of these documents, yes. But the ones i´ve seen all predates 2008.

And what do you conclude from that? 

I think companies have just become more and more secretive. Or more effective at maintaining the secrecy. So the "leaks" have become more rare. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

Actually, no. Thick oil also wanders. If you need the lube to stay in a specific place, you need grease. 

Apologies,  my phrasing wasn't great, I meant to suggest that thick oil stays put better than thin oil. I'm sure most if not all lubrication wanders eventually.  That must be the main requirement and why service intervals are required. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Swefiddler said:

I have seen some of these documents, yes. But the ones i´ve seen all predates 2008.

Problem with horological watch documents are typically the watch companies do not seem to favor outside people servicing their watches. So this means the only people Who get to see the documents are people who have accounts with the companies and we typically do not. Then companies like Swatch group being so paranoid watermark typically the corners of every single page if you even did have a Swatch group accounts it would not be in your best interest to post anything online if you want to keep your account and not be terminated by Swatch group.

3 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

It is an added substance without lubricating properties and it does nothing for the operation of the movement. The ETA 2824 service manual specifies the colorless SC variant in some applications, but from what i can tell, the most popular youtube horologist doesn´t seems to use it, they just go ordinary HP 1300 for all applications. AeroShell doesn´t have any added dye.

The reason the most popular YouTube horologist don't recommend doing all sorts of things correctly is because why should they. The most popular channels have vast following Of very happy people watching a very entertaining video. Why should they do anything correctly? Then yes a lot of the channels do not do things correctly. But as I said why should they they have a vast following of happy people who don't care whether they do things right or not. For instance when somebody's lubricating and they say I'm using 9010 would it be productive in their video to say 9010 comes in four separate versions and I'm using this one? Or would they just say 9010? The same thing with HP oils there's three different versions of those. They're just going to say I'm using this and they don't care because their viewers don't either.

 

3 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

As to why we havent seen any alternatives yet, my answer is that no one rellay challenged it. There is also a lack of info, we only know what ETA uses, and they are for obvious reasons endorsing Moebius products. We know nothing about what other major manufacturers uses for lubrication in what application.

One of the problems would be like ETA it's a Swatch group company it's going to recommend a Swatch group product.

Then I confused by the quote of you haven't seen any alternates yet? For instance go to cousins I see them citizen oil and some other Swiss spring that would be an alternative wouldn't it?

Or what about this here is a company that people should recognize and look what they're selling it's a Swiss product?

But what you mean by there aren't any alternatives yet? Go to cousins for instance look up horological lubrication and there is other companies. I notice they even have citizen oil oh I think they label it citizen/Seiko but still they have Japanese oil and the spec sheet in Japanese.

Then here's a recognized company notice what they're selling Swiss made. Even have a way out limited spec sheet the company is here look they have lubrication and epilam and even a lubrication kit that's not an alternative?

https://lrcb.ch/produits/produits.html

 

 

1 hour ago, Swefiddler said:

Oil is after all just oil.

I like that let's go to eBay in this case eBay UK and search for a namebrand product it even comes in export grade. As you can see it's a bargain price.

 

[tomh207]

Oil is most definitely not just oil. Not all oils are any good for lubricating all things and are formulated with several additives depending on the application. You wouldn’t use engine oil in a gearbox for example, the engine oil is formulated to be circulated by a pump and filtered, gearbox oil to have fast moving parts sloshing about in it, no filtration or circulation. These need very different properties preventing emulsification or carbon retention, vastly different from watch oil. Your diesel oil likely is for a combustion engine and will have detergents added for decarbonisation of components due to combustion, watches don’t. If nothing else there is a potential issue with that for watches, namely adversely affecting the plating of wheels and plates/bridges/cocks after long exposure. There are many stories of watches having the above affected with too long an exposure to cleaners that are designed for use cleaning watch parts.

 

where is @canthus when you need him?

 

Tom

[nickelsilver]

Next up: exposing the cabal behind Big Pegwood.

[RichardHarris123]

5 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Next up: exposing the cabal behind Big Pegwood.

You're a marked man now, check under your car for explosives.  

[mbwatch]

9 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

the most popular youtube horologist doesn´t seems to use it, they just go ordinary HP 1300 for all applications

If you're referring to the one I think you're referring to, this would be pretty low on my list of things they don't do according to ideal practice. I am pretty sure that person has never once looked at a movement's service guide or tech sheet.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, tomh207 said:

the engine oil is formulated to be circulated by a pump and filtered, gearbox oil to have fast moving parts sloshing about in it, no filtration or circulation. These need very different properties preventing emulsification or carbon retention, vastly different from watch oil.

What about engine oil for a clock? Seems like a clock would have similar properties to watch?

I have a link below famous clock repair person well famous around here or maybe on the West Coast of the US. The link will take you to his experience with he loves to use automotive motor oil On his clocks and he explains why. Even has this statement All of the pivots were in excellent shape, absolutely minimal impact from 5 years of operation, though the Moebius grease that I had used on the winding arbors had gone green. Although minor problem of comparing a synthetic automobile lubricant to a unknown because he doesn't give us a part number grease that may have actually had organic substances which some of their lubricant do.

Then the second link we get all the interesting technical things. Like the viscosity chart and he talks about Nye Clock Oil 140B For instance notice on the chart how thin it is. I've seen discussions where people explain why clocks have to have super light oil because? I once inherited a bottle of this oil and it looks like water in the bottle I would never think of oiling anything with that to be quite honest. Then the sperm oil I don't know if that's for all of them somebody gifted me a box with a nice bottle of brand-new from no idea how many years ago seemingly an absolutely perfect condition of watch oil and yes it's extremely fluid it's never gone bad at least visually.

The nice thing at least is he does have a background in lubrication is using a really good grade a synthetic oil and he backs up with what he says with experience over time.

https://www.snclocks.com/TechnicalInformation/Tid-Bits/Tid-Bit-22-Oil-Oilers-Sinks

https://www.snclocks.com/TechnicalInformation/Tid-Bits/Tid-Bit-22-Oil-Oilers-Sinks/i-vkx5qRZ

Oh and this discussion were having its occurred before and yes it will occur again. Plus of course it's occurred in other discussion groups where unknown parties made a really nice lubrication chart of labeled as watch oil but there is clock oil mixed in. Couldn't find the discussion but I did find a lubrication chart.

Now there is a minor problem with the lubrication chart up above and that would be an indication is at least two of the companies are no longer producing a horological lubrication at least for us.

Last night is tracking down the companies when the reference somewhere in this group was that only one brand of watch oil is recommended and exists when we know it does not and noticed that nye is very proud of all the fields that they produce lubrication for and I believe in their history they do reference watch and clock oil but I didn't see it as a product category that they're still making.

Then in the chart up above we also have the brand of Etsyntha  Which is popular by a lot of people on this group. But he go to the link below for instance and noticed that the clock oil is listed as rare and everything else is out of stock war down to one bottle. As looking on Amazon and notice the exact same thing.

https://ronellclock.com/product-category/oils-compounds/oils/etsyntha/

Then we have the parent company at the link below who is very proud of their brand of Etsyntha.

https://www.tillwich-stehr.com/en/

But? We go down the lubricants you can see that they make horological lubricants. They also explain the properties and characteristics of lubricants in horology and other words oil is not just oil at least this silly company thinks not. But years ago when you come to the website did have all kinds of technical information about all the lubrication's they make and now basically they're suggesting that you'll have to inquire and they don't even list their products which makes me wonder based on the limited research as to whether they only are manufacturing for the watch companies directly?

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Next up: exposing the cabal behind Big Pegwood.

I knew it !  reconstituted used matchsticks

[Swefiddler]

@JohnR725 your posts doesn’t make much sense. Are you some kind of AI posting robot or what? If so, please post elsewhere, or give some kind of indication you are an actual person.