Oil is oil or is it??

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, JohnL said:

When I said that Moebius oils are expensive and people are looking for alternatives -> "Bad plan"

If it works it works , why change something that works for something that is unknown to ( in that application ). Timed experiments for ourselves if thats what we want to do, proving good result is something else.

There was something like this way way back. A new to the hobby guy decided to use regular engine oil and vaseline for grease in a movement. I remember it was a  Cauny watch, he managed to make it work initially, after a week he disappeared and never came back lol. Its a long time experiment if anyone wants to take it on, wear the same watch on a regular basis and meet back here in 5 years time. If the results were positive would we listen ? Probably not, hard to believe something that appears on the surface to be ridiculous. 

[JohnL]

25 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Timed experiments for ourselves if thats what we want to do

Whatever floats someone's boat or blows their skirt up.  It's something I've wondered about previously so when I saw this chat I thought I'd ask for his opinion. His area of expertise is lubrication (steady), so my wonderings are satisfied. I'll be perfectly frank though and say I do find the area better than a cup of Horlicks. 

I did mention that I suspected that Moebius and the like had a sellers market when they can sell 2ml for £17. -> "Yup, extortionate" was the reply  

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

I dont want this thread to grow hostile,

What is interesting here you were not expecting this?

There are other discussion groups out there and in one particular group in the past it wasn't actually written anyplace but basically horological lubrication was a forbidden subject for the most part. Simplistically because the people on that group can be extremely opinionated or at least they were in the past. So if a lubrication question was raised people would run for cover hide in their bunkers hide under tables and hope it would go away. So it basically is a well-known fact that if you have a discussion on horological lubrication you going to have problems.

Oh here's something interesting on lubrication in horology. Maybe It's a direction we should be going in after all if Roger thinks it's good it should be good enough for the rest of us?

https://www.rwsmithwatches.com/journal/roger-announces-nano-science-research-collaboration/

 

[RichardHarris123]

Who am I to question Dr Rogers but here goes.  The article was written in 2019, we should have a follow up by now.  How can testing only take 22 months?  The usual service interval is around 5 years and if it never needs servicing the the test period is forever.  Forever is impossible but how's it running after 10, 15, 20 years etc. 

Expense? If this is successful, how much would it cost compared to an equivalent without the new technology  

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

engine oil

I thought we were talking about a watch? You want to talk about engine oil? Previously I did bring this up but obviously nobody bothered to read it?

So rather than a link to the website when I was scouring the computer for horological lubrication I noticed I have a PDF so it's all in one place. In the attached PDF he talks about his experience with clock repair and lubrication and then he uses something called 5W-40 Which appears to me to be some form of engine oil? If you read the article he actually says it's a German product and uses it for his BMW.

Although it does bring up the amusement that I have of once reading about characteristics of engine oil as even engine oil can vary dramatically from brand to brand with some being much much better than others at least in engines.

 

407_76_80 nawcc oil.pdf

[canthus]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

 

Sitting back enjoying the discussion  !!!!

FYI the above additives are

surfactant

low temp flow improver

anti-oxidants

rust (corrosion) inhibitor

anti wear additive

Dye for a nice colour!

Enjoy.

Forgot to add that this has an PAO (polyalphaolefin) base oil.  This is a synthesised oil manufactured from selected mineral oil hydrocarbons.

Oil is oil.  Lubricants can be anything that works for the reduction of friction. Even water!!

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, canthus said:

Sitting back enjoying the discussion  !!!!

FYI the above additives are

surfactant

low temp flow improver

anti-oxidants

rust (corrosion) inhibitor

anti wear additive

Dye for a nice colour!

Enjoy.

I assume nothing is added or needed for adhesion, I found another term for low temp flow improver...pour point depressant . Who willing to buy a barrel of each to find out what the ratios are ?

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

adhesion

I suppose it depends upon what you're using the oil for? For instance in a watch or clock it be nice if it would stay wherever it's put it but In a engine we tend to like it to flow around a lot so maybe that would not be a good thing?

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I suppose it depends upon what you're using the oil for? For instance in a watch or clock it be nice if it would stay wherever it's put it but In a engine we tend to like it to flow around a lot so maybe that would not be a good thing?

Just that Canthus didn't list it as a property for the 9010 ingredients list. 

Mechanical adhesion through good oiling practices would be one good way to keep oil in its place. You would also think any additive to an oil to increase its adhesion would also increase how much friction it produces between parts. This seems like a constant battle of balance between reducing friction and increasing adhesion. Eg. Mechanically, two polished surfaces mating have low friction between them, add oil to the joint and they slip very freely but does the oil want to leave the area ?  Now two rough surfaces have higher friction between them , add oil to the joint and now does the oil want to stay put ?

[tomh207]

@Neverenoughwatches the polished surfaces bit is not universal. If you take two or more guage blocks and slide them together they will stick. This is used to stack them additively to use them as a precision measurement device. Much more accurate than any micrometer.

where you have two smooth surfaces friction is high, same as with two rough surfaces for opposite reasons. What you want is dissimilar materials both highly polished then at a surface molecular level friction is reduced.

 

Tom

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

@Neverenoughwatches the polished surfaces bit is not universal. If you take two or more guage blocks and slide them together they will stick. This is used to stack them additively to use them as a precision measurement device. Much more accurate than any micrometer.

where you have two smooth surfaces friction is high, same as with two rough surfaces for opposite reasons. What you want is dissimilar materials both highly polished then at a surface molecular level friction is reduced.

 

Tom

Sorry but no, two smooth surfaces have low friction but will stick together due to no air being inbetween them. A rough and smooth surface, medium friction, two rough surfaces,high friction.

A pivot isn't acting against a jewel or hole when lubricated, it's acting against a thin film of the lubricant.  

[Knebo]

7 hours ago, Swefiddler said:

I dont want this thread to grow hostile

I don't think anyone here was hostile.. 

 

From my point of view, you'd need to provide more information on your product, beyond viscosity. Viscosity is important, but far from the only thing. 

 

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

I think this super interesting table from @JohnR725 would give you something to test and share with us. 

In particular, I'd be interested in the contact angle. You should be able to put a drop on a steel pivot and on a ruby and provide images of that under a microscope (or at least sufficient magnification). We can then try to estimate the angles. 

 

 

Or test adhesion. Do you actually have 9010 for a direct comparison? 

E.g. take a polished sheet of steel and put equally sized drops of 9010 and your competitor on it. Then put the sheet into a vertical position to see if/how each drop flows down. 

 

Just a few ideas.. 

Edited February 26 by Knebo

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Sorry but no, two smooth surfaces have low friction but will stick together due to no air being inbetween them. A rough and smooth surface, medium friction, two rough surfaces,high friction.

A pivot isn't acting against a jewel or hole when lubricated, it's acting against a thin film of the lubricant.  

I think I know what you mean Richard I was thinking the same as I read Tom's post. Two very flat surfaces will hold together, I thought that is something to do with creating a vacuum between them. Something different to what Tom was explaining. 

8 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

pivot isn't acting against a jewel or hole when lubricated, it's acting against a thin film of the lubricant

I've sen this mentioned a few times, the oil film becomes the bearing surface. Thin oil , small molecule bearings  , thick oil , larger molecule bearings, like flowing rollers . Sounds feasible but is it true ?

7 hours ago, Knebo said:

E.g. take a polished sheet of steel and put equally sized drops of 9010 and your competitor on it. Then put the sheet into a vertical position to see if/how each drop flows down. 

I like this idea...how about on a piece of glass . Viscosity is going to play a big part of the result unless they are both equal.  Drop size as well, I found measuring drop size was important when I tested some cleaners. 

8 hours ago, Knebo said:

In particular, I'd be interested in the contact angle. You should be able to put a drop on a steel pivot and on a ruby and provide images of that under a microscope (or at least sufficient magnification). We can then try to estimate the angles. 

Mostly determined by the surface tension , so a lot depends on what is below and what is above the droplet. 

[JohnR725]

54 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Mostly determined by the surface tension

Surface tension how about a picture from a book?

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I like this idea...how about on a piece of glass

How about another page from the same book where they have a Idea?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Surface tension how about a picture from a book?

How about another page from the same book where they have a Idea?

 

Simple idea John, it doesn't replicate what happens to a watch, before anyone suggests that, but it's a baseline experiment with which to compare oil properties equally.

To add a little reality and speed up the experiment,  the plate could be revolved eccentrically or out of level.

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

it doesn't replicate what happens to a watch

This is why the best way to evaluate lubrication is to evaluate watches which you've serviced many years later. Or to deliberately lubricate a watch with things to see what happens which I assume in this discussion has been done?

[Swefiddler]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

There are other discussion groups out there and in one particular group in the past it wasn't actually written anyplace but basically horological lubrication was a forbidden subject for the most part. Simplistically because the people on that group can be extremely opinionated or at least they were in the past. So if a lubrication question was raised people would run for cover hide in their bunkers hide under tables and hope it would go away. So it basically is a well-known fact that if you have a discussion on horological lubrication you going to have problems.

So i have learned. Thats why i have chosen a forum far from home. 

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

I don't think anyone here was hostile.. 

Correct. Didnt say so. 

52 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Surface tension how about a picture from a book?

 

This is great stuff. The info box states the importance of oiling practices. Regardless of what oil you use, doesn´t matter if not applied correctly. Very interesting.

I would very much like to have that book.

This document may also be of intrest.
https://watchmaker.hu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/olajzási útmutató.pdf

Edited February 27 by Swefiddler

[Neverenoughwatches]

59 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

This is why the best way to evaluate lubrication is to evaluate watches which you've serviced many years later. Or to deliberately lubricate a watch with things to see what happens which I assume in this discussion has been done?

I agree but but the average person can be lazy and impatient by nature, a five or three or even a one year plan to complete an experiment can take dedication.

[JohnR725]

32 minutes ago, Swefiddler said:

I would very much like to have that book.

You can purchase the book at the link below.

https://www.booksimonin.ch/en/9493-english-the-theory-of-horology.php#corps

Then When I was looking at the homepage I noticed something sad. The founder the company died last year I had wondered how old he was. If you're curious I have a link.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2024/05/obituary-antoine-simonin-wostep.html

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

So the first pages into the Tribology book, brought up something that I hadn't thought about and without reading back through the thread I don't know if it was mentioned . Canthus listed properties of the 9010 , i can't see or rather don't know if there is an additive here to protect the oil from heat damage as would be the case in an engine.  All friction is the resistance to motion, which is an energy dissipation, that results in the formation of heat at the point of contact. Its not measurable in a watch, by us, because of the size ,but that doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist. The fastest moving components of a watch are the lever and balance staff, the lever pivots are not oiled but the balance staff's oil has to cope with permanent friction from a constant load and velocity. I'm Fascinated to know what the temperature would be at the exact point of contact, especially at a molecular level and if it has a degeneration effect on the oil.

Edited March 1 by Neverenoughwatches

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

formation of heat at the point of contact.

One of the interesting properties of the watch would be the heat is being generated at a relatively confined space next to Sapphire. So is your heating up your oil and the entire droplet oil is absorbing the heat it's in good contact with Sapphire which is what the ruby colored jewel it really is an Sapphire is a very good conductor of heat.

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

especially at a molecular level and if it has a degeneration effect on the oil.

Maybe another reason why oil doesn't last forever at least on the balance jewels.

[Swefiddler]

Moving on. Moebius states that the lineup of oils they offer are ether alcohol based. This expression has bugged me for a while, as is doesn´t seems to be the choice of base oils for other commercial products. So why use this method of synthesizing?

It is actually explanined in this sales document from Moebius. The last chapter "Cleaning, Lubrication, Surface Treatment" is interresting in it´s own right but it also highlights a few specific details. The first is that older, natural oils (Moebius (8XXX series of oils still in production) have some very desirable properties for horology, but lacking others, the most important one is stability, in other words it oxidies and evaporates. In this process the oil transforms from lube to basically glue. So it´s very easy to understand why this is a problem in a mechanism more or less intended to be lubed only once per service cycle. 

Another issue was the introduction of plastic parts in watches, not always compatible with natural oils. 

Problem 1

One of the main problems in a watch is the issue of having the lubes to do it´s job over an extended perod of time and not to dissolve plastic. 

So the syntetic oil was developed to mend these issues, resulting in modern horology lubes. But. The lubrication properties of these new syntetic very stable ether alcohol based oils are inferior. New problem. Solution? Additives. So the 9010 is a stable syntetic oil with additives to improve lubrication.   

Problem 2

The other main problem is to have it stay in place. The document actually mentiones this issue as a major one, as customers even complained that the oil seems to be gone (evaporated), when it in reality has migrated. To deal with that issue epilame comes into play. These liquides are very expensive, but again, the document mentions that before syntetic epilames came around stearic acids were used. The only downside beeing that is could not withstand a cleaning cycle. But maybe as a hobbyist that would be an acceptable compromise. My guess is that the price of stearic acids is like 1/100 of the price of fix-o-drop. This topic has actually been discussed on this forum before, so it clearly has some merit to it.   

Concluison:

A modern syntetic oil is very stable in both above montioned aspects. The lubrication properties are excellent, probably superior to ether alcohol based products @same viscosity. The visco curv is steeper giving less change in properties with temp.  

Stearic acids could probably be used as a hobbyist´t epilame. It would not survive a cleaning process, but does it really  matter? Without service history data, any watchmaker with even the slightest touch of ocd would probably like to do the treatment anyway, and the old method is better than no method, right? So if the treatment only lasts one service cycle doesnt relly matter. 

This gives me confidence that there are viable options available, the product i have tested beeing one of them. 

--------------------------------------------------------

Another loose thread for me has been the myth of oil beeing agressive to certain metals, and this should have som realtion to additives. The above documents mentions that :
"Two processes are mainly responsible (for oxidation) :

- reaction with the oxygen of the air and

- the catalytic action of the copper from the brass particles worn off the bearings." 

My theory is that the fact that some loose particles can contribute to the oxidation process of the oil has been missinterpreted as the oil in some way beeing agressive to metal parts. This is clearly not the case. 

[tomh207]

Ok, so you still are looking down the path of “why can’t I use this aviation grade engine oil in my watch, it’s just the same “. I want to ask this hypothetical question, if the price of moebius 9010 and the shell aero engine oil, would you use the moebius 9010 in your aircraft engine? If not, why not?

 

Tom

[Swefiddler]

58 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Ok, so you still are looking down the path of “why can’t I use this aviation grade engine oil in my watch, it’s just the same “. I want to ask this hypothetical question, if the price of moebius 9010 and the shell aero engine oil, would you use the moebius 9010 in your aircraft engine? If not, why not?

Tom

Quite simple really. I would have to sell my aircraft in order to fund the purchase. Kind of defeats the purpose.

Jokes aside, 9010 would probably not be good enough. The lubrication properties of an ether alcohol based oil would not be sufficient, too high visco at lower temperatures and to thin at higher temp. And the dye would leave residue in the engine.  

I´m not trying to provoke. Why not untie yourself from the mast and look at this with open eyes?

PS I just assume that you for whatever reason left out "were the same" in your question. DS 

[tomh207]

Not a problem here, not provoked, at least I don’t think. Just a simple question of if the two items were the same cost and as you said originally just the same, would you fly an aeroplane that has been lubricated with moebius 9010 rather than an industry standard? If as you claim they are just the same then you would be happy to do so. You have said above that moebius 9010 is not up to the task, for me that simply means the two products are not the same, nor equivalent apart from they can be classified as lubricants.

please read what I posted previously about them being the same cost.

Tom