1916 trench half hunter VERY radiumed

[AlecMac]

Hi, 

Just picked up this mystery watch from a local charity shop. Any thoughts?

All I know is the hallmark is for the Glasgow assay office dated 1916. The JW sponsors mark is a mystery and going to be a tough one to solve as the Glasgow office shut down in 1964 and the records have been lost.

This watch is also 80 times more radioactive than any other I've measured. Would love to have seen it glowing when new.

All the best

Alec 

 

[mikepilk]

Lovely looking movement. It would be good to see under the dial and get a movement diameter to help identify it. Any marks under the balance?

I can feel it glowing from here    That's a lot of radium. The first thing I do with a radium watch is (wearing a mask) seal the dial and hands in a plastic bag. It looks to be a nice enamel dial, so removing the radium in water should be easy.

[RichardHarris123]

The lume is missing from the hands, imagine the reading when it was intact.  

What type of mask do you wear, @mikepilk ?

[AlecMac]

Hi Mike, I was just about to attempt a cheeky peek under the balance when I thought "let's check the dial for radium" and all works stopped for now.  

The movement is 27.8mm(ish) trying to measure it still cased. 

[mikepilk]

6 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The lume is missing from the hands, imagine the reading when it was intact.  

What type of mask do you wear, @mikepilk ?

I use the N95 masks I bought in lockdown.
I cover the desk in clingfilm to prevent contamination, and wear latex gloves (maybe not necessary). I remove the radium with cotton wool buds and warm water. Everything I use which comes in to possible contact with radium, I seal in plastic bags and put in the household waste. The small amount of cleaning water, I soak in to kitchen paper and bag. I think it's OK to tip in down the drain (here in the UK).

There are plenty of opinions on just how dangerous radium is. The bottom line is you don't want it in your body. Taking the above steps is not difficult and should prevent a chance of ingestion of particles. Once under water, there's no chance of inhaling particles.

With some 'historic' watches some people prefer to leave the radium intact for authenticity. Painting a clear lacquer (nail varnish) over the radium will prevent particles flaking off. 

I have a 1940s Universal Geneve with a radium dial where it's not easy to remove the radium, and it looks better left original. I keep it sealed in plastic bag to (hopefully) keep the radon gas in.

37 minutes ago, AlecMac said:

This watch is also 80 times more radioactive than any other I've measured. Would love to have seen it glowing when new.

Out of interest, do you have a reading in of the radiation count?

[AlecMac]

There are two issues with radium dials. First the possible ingestion of radium. Secondly, when the radium atom emits an alpha particle it becomes a radon gas atom. 

https://www.northampton.ac.uk/news/wwii-military-watches-potentially-pose-serious-cancer-risk/

There are some internet experts who'll confidently assert that it's not a problem, but I'm going with the actual experts on this one and following something along the lines of Mike's regime.  

 

[RichardHarris123]

I have done a far amount of reading on radium dials etc and I have have a  good base understanding of radioactive decay. I think that wearing gloves and a mask is adequate and your exposure time will be limited.  However I know some people are wary of working with radium. 

[Juleswatch]

Newbie guess - could it be a Wakmman - correct time frame, I have a small Swiss Walkman pocket watch with similar hands and radium issues. Incase you don't already have this info; 

In 1895, Mr. Wakmann was born in Russia with Jewish origins. 

1943 – During WWII

In the early stages of World War II (WWII), Mr. Wakmann started his watch business in Portugaland and had been representing several high-end European watch brands.  At the same time, warfare was spreading across Europe at a rapid pace.  During the Holocaust, the Wakmann family devoted great efforts in assisting refugees from the Nazi horror.

During WWII in North America, many American watch companies were put at a disadvantage.  Their production was switched to war products, while the Swiss watch manufacturers produced watches for war efforts and civilians.  As a result, the U.S.government decided to support the American watch industry.  The Swiss Watch Import Act was subsequently formed, and the U.S. Department of Commerce started to impose custom duties on high-end imported Swiss watches. 

Mr. Wakmann quickly recognized that this was an excellent opportunity to start his professional watch business in America.  Therefore, he travelled across the Atlantic Ocean, from Lisbon,Portugal toNew York City, with the aim of establishing his new business in North America– to fulfill his lifelong dream.

If not looking forward to seeing what it was all the best...Jules

 

Not Walkman - Wakmman! Spell checker again...

[RichardHarris123]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Interesting experiment. 

There are a lot of components in modern engine oils, some of which may not be suitable for watch movements?

 

18 minutes ago, Juleswatch said:

Newbie guess - could it be a Wakmman - correct time frame, I have a small Swiss Walkman pocket watch with similar hands and radium issues. Incase you don't already have this info; 

In 1895, Mr. Wakmann was born in Russia with Jewish origins. 

1943 – During WWII

In the early stages of World War II (WWII), Mr. Wakmann started his watch business in Portugaland and had been representing several high-end European watch brands.  At the same time, warfare was spreading across Europe at a rapid pace.  During the Holocaust, the Wakmann family devoted great efforts in assisting refugees from the Nazi horror.

During WWII in North America, many American watch companies were put at a disadvantage.  Their production was switched to war products, while the Swiss watch manufacturers produced watches for war efforts and civilians.  As a result, the U.S.government decided to support the American watch industry.  The Swiss Watch Import Act was subsequently formed, and the U.S. Department of Commerce started to impose custom duties on high-end imported Swiss watches. 

Mr. Wakmann quickly recognized that this was an excellent opportunity to start his professional watch business in America.  Therefore, he travelled across the Atlantic Ocean, from Lisbon,Portugal toNew York City, with the aim of establishing his new business in North America– to fulfill his lifelong dream.

If not looking forward to seeing what it was all the best...Jules

 

Not Walkman - Wakmman! Spell checker again...

The case at least is from 1916 so before Wakmman existence.  The style of hands and radium dial are quite common.  If there's no makers mark under the balance or dial then using the best fit catalogue is the next step. 

[mikepilk]

21 minutes ago, Juleswatch said:

Newbie guess - could it be a Wakmman - correct time frame, I have a small Swiss Walkman pocket watch with similar hands and radium issues. Incase you don't already have this info; 

I've never heard of Wakmann, sounds Interesting.

27.8mm makes it about 12.5'''

There's no Wakmann in Ranfft, but in Bestfit for Wakmann it says "See Breitling".  Under Breitling there are no matching movements of that size. Identifying from the keyless would be best.

 

[AlecMac]

Found it! It’s a Marvin 362. 
 

The JW sponsors mark is for James Wier of Glasgow. 
 

Thank you for the replies!

[RichardHarris123]

Under the balance or dial ?

[AlecMac]

 Don't know yet, recognised it from browsing here https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/movements.php

 

 

 

[tomh207]

We have a bit of a problem with radium lume here in Scotland in the Firth of Forth. Apparently the MOD decided to dump aircraft instruments in the river after WW2 and the stuff gets washed up on the beach and gets collected when detected. It’s costing millions to do this year after year.

the most recent write up I can find is here

https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/dalgety-bay-radioactive-scottish-beach-almost-safe-33-years-2299839

They are collecting fragments around 1mm square which are considered dangerous apparently.

Tom

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, AlecMac said:

his watch is also 80 times more radioactive than any other I've measured. Would love to have seen it glowing when new.

You would probably have needed sunglasses because the brightness Would blind you.

6 hours ago, tomh207 said:

We have a bit of a problem with radium lume here in Scotland in the Firth of Forth. Apparently the MOD decided to dump aircraft instruments in the river after WW2 and the stuff gets washed up on the beach and gets collected when detected. It’s costing millions to do this year after year.

You do realize the planet is a really big place. Then typical government military agencies the philosophy is out of sight out of mind don't worry about it ever again. So unfortunately for all of us  these problems are ongoing for the entire planet.

 

Oh give Scotland  how about  recycling is an example of a product that got recycled  into something interesting.. Don't worry you'll figure out really fast he gets really  excited about it. Yes something to keep you warm on a cold night  perhaps carried in your pocket although it does get a little bit on the warm side.

https://youtu.be/9Ry4QBQejFU?si=hgFjP2OGn3Jp8nus

 

 

[tomh207]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

You would probably have needed sunglasses because the brightness Would blind you.

You do realize the planet is a really big place. Then typical government military agencies the philosophy is out of sight out of mind don't worry about it ever again. So unfortunately for all of us  these problems are ongoing for the entire planet.

 

Oh give Scotland  how about  recycling is an example of a product that got recycled  into something interesting.. Don't worry you'll figure out really fast he gets really  excited about it. Yes something to keep you warm on a cold night  perhaps carried in your pocket although it does get a little bit on the warm side.

https://youtu.be/9Ry4QBQejFU?si=hgFjP2OGn3Jp8nus

 

 

@JohnR725 he must have done that for April fools day! Having served in the British army there is no Scottish army, only Scottish divisions. I would have loved that ration pack whilst serving.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Scottish army, only Scottish divisions.

Interesting I never questioned whether is valid or not. I did find it was rather interesting and I really did like the heater. Now I feel sad because I thought the heater was interesting idea.

[AlecMac]

6 hours ago, tomh207 said:

@JohnR725 he must have done that for April fools day! Having served in the British army there is no Scottish army, only Scottish divisions. I would have loved that ration pack whilst serving.

 

Tom

Don’t think it’s a spoof. If was the disarray among the Scots regiments caused by the sinking of Iron Bru tanker, HMS Sauchiehall, that led to Dunkirk.