Hampden pocket watch 2575591 16s Balance not moving freely (replaced balance staff)

[BillM]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

this is the unfortunate problem of vintage watches where somebody before you made a repair for them with zero thought of what will happen in the future. In other words it was convenient for them to change the jewel and not worry about you at all.

Well, that’s a very good point, so  it seams like the best move is to replace the jewel so everything is correct/ the same.  
It would be nice to make this right.  
Just another learning curve on this endeavor to repair old watches I guess.  

[BillM]

Well I got a replacement lower jewel from Dave’s watch parts and the pivot hole is correct, but unfortunately the setting size is different.  
Dave sent me the correct part for this watch according to serial number and part number.  ( he has no other parts that fit the dimensions I need). 
So now what? Try to switch the jewels in the settings?  I don’t have the proper tools for that job.  

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, BillM said:

but unfortunately the setting size is different.  
Dave sent me the correct part for this watch according to serial number and part number

I believe on the first page I had a listing of the various settings and their sizes how does yours compare. Then different in other words it does not fit end of the bridge or just looks dear friends or what do you mean exactly?

Oh and then of course there is the minor problem of pocket watches have lots and lots and lots of variations. You may have a parts book you may get a part number but you can get variations lots of them.

2 hours ago, BillM said:

Try to switch the jewels in the settings?  I don’t have the proper tools for that job.

You never going to succeed the swap the jewels there burnished in usually. A better approach would be to smash the original jewel to get out of your way and then if you had the tools for modern jewel yet friction in a modern jewel providing is enough brass of the setting to get it in.

 

[BillM]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I believe on the first page I had a listing of the various settings and their sizes how does yours compare. Then different in other words it does not fit end of the bridge or just looks dear friends or what do you mean exactly?

Oh and then of course there is the minor problem of pocket watches have lots and lots and lots of variations. You may have a parts book you may get a part number but you can get variations lots of them.

You never going to succeed the swap the jewels there burnished in usually. A better approach would be to smash the original jewel to get out of your way and then if you had the tools for modern jewel yet friction in a modern jewel providing is enough brass of the setting to get it in.

 

The old jewel setting does not compare to the listing on the first page at all, meaning none of the dimensions match. 
 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, BillM said:

The old jewel setting does not compare to the listing on the first page at all, meaning none of the dimensions match. 

I assume that your settings fit perfectly? Then looking at the sizes does not match anything in the listing?

Then it brings up the problem of we don't have a material book that gives us the dimensions of whatever was supposed to be there in the first place. I do curiosity the replacement that doesn't fit at all does it match the dimensions on the listing that I had?

Of course one of the problems could've been is somebody could us swapped with whatever they had but if the replacement doesn't fit at all than that's unlikely scenario as it leaves us with a bit of a mystery.

Then these ones are very very close but they definitely were not made for your watch

Just off by a tiny bit?

 

 

[BillM]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I assume that your settings fit perfectly? Then looking at the sizes does not match anything in the listing?

Then it brings up the problem of we don't have a material book that gives us the dimensions of whatever was supposed to be there in the first place. I do curiosity the replacement that doesn't fit at all does it match the dimensions on the listing that I had?

Of course one of the problems could've been is somebody could us swapped with whatever they had but if the replacement doesn't fit at all than that's unlikely scenario as it leaves us with a bit of a mystery.

Then these ones are very very close but they definitely were not made for your watch

Just off by a tiny bit?

 

 

Yes, the old jewel setting fits very nicely.  
The new setting does not match the listing exactly, but it’s close. 
 

[JohnR725]

 

40 minutes ago, BillM said:

The new setting does not match the listing exactly, but it’s close. 

Does the new jewel setting fit in the watch at all?

[BillM]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Does the new jewel setting fit in the watch at all?

The larger diameter does not, but the smaller diameter does.  
The only way to get to fit would be to turn down the larger outer diameter.  

Edited October 6, 2023 by BillM

[JohnR725]

This is unfortunately a classic problem of variations that are not listed anywhere. My favorite is Elgin 18 size balance staff came in four separate physical style differences with the same part number and then they had pivot differences I think is at least 12 balance staffs all with the same part number that definitely do not interchange.

Or I know someone who is doing a project with a whole bunch of Illinois watches picked because according to the parts book for that model there only one No variations which would make things pretty darn simple except. The watch was made for 30 years and very popular watch the parts book does not cover that there are lots of variations including in the balance jewel assembly very dramatic variations. That means on one occasion when I needed new balance jewel I think I went through nine of them before I found one that would work but the parts book indicates one only

now unfortunately need to run out the door some that do some quick snipping so this is what supposed to go in your watch but obviously doesn't

We also the problem of poor documentation for companies that maybe didn't well Elgin has much better documentation for instance so does Hamilton but companies like this limited documentation

so from yesterday's best guess some of the Illinois are really close as to whether they would actually fit and be close enough I don't know. This is where ideally working on pocket watches you need a Lathe because of your later years have to make parts or modify stuff

 

[BillM]

Thank you for all this information JohnR725, I truly appreciate your help.

I have a lathe and am probably going to try turning down the diameter of the new jewel and see where that gets me.

It'll be a few days as I have some travel to do, but I'll update this post after that.

-Bill

[BillM]

Well, I was able to turn down the outer diameter of the new jewel, though it is a bit off center it has allowed me to fit check the new longer staff, which turns out to be too long and the first staff I bought is too short. Im starting to think that the balance cock is not the right one for this watch. 
Most likely there’s another length variation of the staff. 
This watch is driving me nuts!   

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, BillM said:

Im starting to think that the balance cock is not the right one for this watch. 

Typically with American pocket watches they have serial numbers. All of the components typically the plate components occasionally the mainspring barrel and an even seen an hour wheel one time will have a partial of the serial number. So the balance bridge is wrong you should build a look on the bottom and see if the serial number at all matches probably just one or two digits will be there but that will tell you if it's the right bridge or not. Then there's always the possibility that somebody has bent the bridge to accommodate the wrong Balance staff.

16 minutes ago, BillM said:

This watch is driving me nuts!  

Then welcome to vintage. This is why a vintage pocket watch repair is not recommended for people new to watch repair because rapidly you can end up with lots and lots and lots of problems. Then you can also end up with lots of variations as you're finding the parts book that indicates one part may actually in real life indicate lots of parts lots of variations. Plus of course others have worked on the watch before you and Possibly/probably modified and/or changed things.

 

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Guys,

The decision is simple: turning a new staff that will meet the sizes and entire situation of the movement, no mater what has happened to it in the years. By the way, European pre 1900 watch movements were not unified at all, so no spare parts for them , no point to search for parts and donors, but only making new parts is the only way of restoring them. If one wants to be antique watch movements restorer, then he will need to learn how to make parts, no another way.

Not only the bridge can be different. Stone settings may be changed and thus the free distance between endstones (which is the staff lenght) can become different.

The staff lenght is not the only one important size: the positions of the roller and the balance wheel in high depend on the staff sizes. So, the first thing to do is to determinate the needed sizes of the staff by using the position of the stones, the lever and the lever bridge in the movement. This is something important that must be learned right. If one knows that, he will easy know if a staff from some supplier's list will do or not and will avoid ordering wrong parts.

[BillM]

Update. 
With some help I finally got the Hampden watch up and running. 
Ended up replacing the balance complete and replacing the lower jewel. 
It’s running pretty well now, tho a bit fast.  
Thank you all for helping me, I truly appreciate your help and knowledge. 
Bill. 
 

[CYCLOPS]

after re-staffing always install balance without roller and hairspring to check for freeness, then the same after hairspring is pressed on to check for the same freeness, this is a good practice for all....helps eliminate some issues early....