Help Required To Diagnose What I'm Doing Wrong

[KenneyKev]

Hi all

I'm looking for some advise, I have two watchs that are displaying the same fault. First is an Admiral, the second is an Elgin. Both have been stripped, cleaned, put back together and lubricated. Everything seems free and moves easily but when the balance is in they both try to run but the escape wheel doesn't move fully so the pallet fork just moves on the same spot. If you move the escape wheel (on either) it's moving freely but both seem to just sit in a position between the pallet fork! (Apologies if this sounds confusing) What am I doing wrong or not doing right.

When I first put them back together they both ran for about 10 mins, then slowed down and eventually stopped.

Any help appreciated 

Cheers

[RichardHarris123]

Remove the balance and see if the pallet snaps back and forth with a little push, if not then power is getting through from the mainspring, if so it's an issue with the balance.  Try and report back. 

[watchweasol]

Hi depending on how you cleaned the watches with and what you used to clean them with you should check the pallet stones are not loose as the cleaning agent may have softened the shellac holding the stones in place.  Did both watches run before you worked on them.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, KenneyKev said:

Hi all

I'm looking for some advise, I have two watchs that are displaying the same fault. First is an Admiral, the second is an Elgin. Both have been stripped, cleaned, put back together and lubricated. Everything seems free and moves easily but when the balance is in they both try to run but the escape wheel doesn't move fully so the pallet fork just moves on the same spot. If you move the escape wheel (on either) it's moving freely but both seem to just sit in a position between the pallet fork! (Apologies if this sounds confusing) What am I doing wrong or not doing right.

When I first put them back together they both ran for about 10 mins, then slowed down and eventually stopped.

Any help appreciated 

Cheers

So they both ran for 10 mins and stopped but now they wont run at all, was that without any further interaction from you between them running and not running ?

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, KenneyKev said:

 when the balance is in they both try to run but the escape wheel doesn't move fully so the pallet fork just moves on the same spot. If you move the escape wheel (on either) it's moving freely but both seem to just sit in a position between the pallet fork! 

Will you elaborate on the above?   Perhaps it'l be a somewhat more clear showing your point on an image or sketch of escape- fork? 

And did you lube the pallets? 

Rgds

[nevenbekriev]

Elgin and Admiral... This are 100 Years old pocket movements, am I right? Then, they both are with negative stem, the american system, no mater the Admiral is usually Cyma-Tavannes movement... And they worked 10 min. and stopped? The common reason for that is that keyless works is normally in hands setting position. You must switch to winding position in order to dissengage the sliding pinion from the gears of hours hand reduction movement, thus releasing the movement to rotate free.

Edited November 7, 2023 by nevenbekriev

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, KenneyKev said:

First is an Admiral, the second is an Elgin. Both have been stripped, cleaned, put back together and lubricated.

I don't suppose we can have a picture of each of the watches as that might be helpful. Then did you replace the mainsprings?

4 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

The common reason for that is that keyless works is normally in hands setting position. You must switch to winding position in order to dissengage the sliding pinion from the gears of hours hand reduction movement, thus releasing the movement to rotate free.

If we knew which Elgin it was a lot of them have ways of basically putting them in a service mode. Otherwise when the watches assembled just don't put the cannon pinion on. Although were assuming that this is not a lever set.

14 hours ago, KenneyKev said:

When I first put them back together they both ran for about 10 mins, then slowed down and eventually stopped.

I don't suppose you have a timing machine? Almost sounds like your watches ran out of energy in 10 minutes.

[KenneyKev]

21 hours ago, KenneyKev said:

Hi all

I'm looking for some advise, I have two watchs that are displaying the same fault. First is an Admiral, the second is an Elgin. Both have been stripped, cleaned, put back together and lubricated. Everything seems free and moves easily but when the balance is in they both try to run but the escape wheel doesn't move fully so the pallet fork just moves on the same spot. If you move the escape wheel (on either) it's moving freely but both seem to just sit in a position between the pallet fork! (Apologies if this sounds confusing) What am I doing wrong or not doing right.

When I first put them back together they both ran for about 10 mins, then slowed down and eventually stopped.

Any help appreciated 

Cheers

Hi all, so after looking at the comments, I stripped the Elgin back down and gave the pivot holes another clean and blow out. All put back together and it's running .

The only thing is, I manag3d to lose one of the screws for the bridge jewel so need to find one.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose we can have a picture of each of the watches as that might be helpful. Then did you replace the mainsprings?

If we knew which Elgin it was a lot of them have ways of basically putting them in a service mode. Otherwise when the watches assembled just don't put the cannon pinion on. Although were assuming that this is not a lever set.

I don't suppose you have a timing machine? Almost sounds like your watches ran out of energy in 10 minutes.

Hi John

From the online database it's a grade 290, 16s. There is this lever on the side but I'm unsure what it does. I don't have a timing machine yet, Christmas is coming though lol.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose we can have a picture of each of the watches as that might be helpful. Then did you replace the mainsprings?

If we knew which Elgin it was a lot of them have ways of basically putting them in a service mode. Otherwise when the watches assembled just don't put the cannon pinion on. Although were assuming that this is not a lever set.

I don't suppose you have a timing machine? Almost sounds like your watches ran out of energy in 10 minutes.

Here's  the Admiral

11 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Elgin and Admiral... This are 100 Years old pocket movements, am I right? Then, they both are with negative stem, the american system, no mater the Admiral is usually Cyma-Tavannes movement... And they worked 10 min. and stopped? The common reason for that is that keyless works is normally in hands setting position. You must switch to winding position in order to dissengage the sliding pinion from the gears of hours hand reduction movement, thus releasing the movement to rotate free.

Thank you I'll check it

[RichardHarris123]

The lever is for setting the time. 

[KenneyKev]

19 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Will you elaborate on the above?   Perhaps it'l be a somewhat more clear showing your point on an image or sketch of escape- fork? 

And did you lube the pallets? 

Rgds

Yes I used mobius 9415, but only on the end of the jewels. If you think of the escape in a position that allows the pallet fork to move just I the right way to not move the escape wheel, that's they're doing

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The lever is for setting the time. 

Ah thank you

[nevenbekriev]

The lever with the arrow is to switch the keyless works in winding position for service purposes. Put it as on the photo, othervice the movement will stop again.

[KenneyKev]

21 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi depending on how you cleaned the watches with and what you used to clean them with you should check the pallet stones are not loose as the cleaning agent may have softened the shellac holding the stones in place.  Did both watches run before you worked on them.

Hi, the watches weren't runn8ng when i got them,  cleaned them in lighter fuel, then 2 lots ofv99.9% alcohol 

19 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So they both ran for 10 mins and stopped but now they wont run at all, was that without any further interaction from you between them running and not running ?

They stopped on their own, I did check they still had power by seeing if they wound any more.

7 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

The lever with the arrow is to switch the keyless works in winding position for service purposes. Put it as on the photo, othervice the movement will stop again.

Ah, I've got it in the other position, thank you.

[JohnR725]

53 minutes ago, KenneyKev said:

There is this lever on the side but I'm unsure what it does.

I see somebody beat me to the answer. As some were up above it was stated American pocket watches out of their cases typically go into setting a mode. So people assemble the entire watch before worrying about whether it runs will find that they don't usually run well out of the case as the trying to drive the entire setting mechanism. So the watch companies usually but not always had a way of putting it back into running mode which is what that is for. The other reason for having this feature is the movements are typically sold without a case and then the case was available separately in this way the watches could be running out of the case when you're showing Thereto the customer.

Oh and then each watch company typically did this differently so you not go to find the exact same on any of the pocket watches. Plus there tends to be an evolution so it's conceivable different watch companies may use different systems.

Ideally when assembling a watch once it gets to the basics then you a check it on your timing machine and verify that it actually runs before making the assumption that it is going to run perfect. Sometimes it's even nice to just let it run overnight in that condition I do that quite a bit because I don't want to case the thing up and find a surprise of it wouldn't even run overnight for some unknown reason.

Then you didn't mention did you clean the mainspring? Or did you replace it?

 

 

[RichardHarris123]

My understanding is that the lever was to stop the accidental changing of the time on railway grade watches. The bezel would have to be opened and the lever adjusted to change the time. 

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

My understanding is that the lever was to stop the accidental changing of the time on railway grade watches. The bezel would have to be opened and the lever adjusted to change the time. 

Once again were dealing with confusing terminology.

Evolution of watch setting? At one time you had a key to turn the cannon pinion. Early watches that was on the front side later generation was on the backside evolution sometimes was on both sides.

Then to get away from that they start to go to different systems lots of different systems. This is where you find things like the lever works nice for putting it in different modes like when it's in your unwinding of what's out your in setting. Makes it much easier to make the watch with the added bonus of keeping you from setting your railroad watch. So in the case of railroad grade watches pocket watches it is a requirement to have a lever for setting to keep you from accidentally setting the time

Here's an image that I swiped off the Internet of what the lever on a lever setting watch would look like. So typically you would unscrew the bezel but not always you can have hunting cases where you push the button the lid opens up. But you'll typically see a little piece of metal that you use your fingernail to pull out the watch will go into setting.

 

Then the evolution of winding and setting where the case holds the stem. Usually with the sleeve it holds the stem in either the winding or the setting position that is not controlled by the watch itself. Which becomes a major problem if there's a problem with the sleeve or is not adjusted correctly or they can be a big pain if things are right on your case.

So this means that typically American pocket watches out of their case go into setting mode like this image that I swiped from up above. So you can see in this mode when the watches running it is driving the setting components sometimes it will do that quite nicely with no apparent problems and other times depending upon how much friction it will definitely cause writing issues of some form.

Then another image that I swiped up above the watch in the service mode you'll notice it has shifted the keyless components back into winding. Sometimes when you flip the lever you do have to push something in to shift the components they may not actually moved by themselves initially. So now the watches in service mode or mode work and run out of the case.

 

Then as I previously mentioned like the evolution of the keyless lots of different systems. For instance some Hamilton watches have a blue colored screw visible on the other side that you rotate to put it back in the winding. Or for instance here's an image of how Waltham Does it.

 

[KenneyKev]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I see somebody beat me to the answer. As some were up above it was stated American pocket watches out of their cases typically go into setting a mode. So people assemble the entire watch before worrying about whether it runs will find that they don't usually run well out of the case as the trying to drive the entire setting mechanism. So the watch companies usually but not always had a way of putting it back into running mode which is what that is for. The other reason for having this feature is the movements are typically sold without a case and then the case was available separately in this way the watches could be running out of the case when you're showing Thereto the customer.

Oh and then each watch company typically did this differently so you not go to find the exact same on any of the pocket watches. Plus there tends to be an evolution so it's conceivable different watch companies may use different systems.

Ideally when assembling a watch once it gets to the basics then you a check it on your timing machine and verify that it actually runs before making the assumption that it is going to run perfect. Sometimes it's even nice to just let it run overnight in that condition I do that quite a bit because I don't want to case the thing up and find a surprise of it wouldn't even run overnight for some unknown reason.

Then you didn't mention did you clean the mainspring? Or did you replace it?

 

 

I changed the mainspring as the original was broken