Timegrapher show -220 watch runs +1 hour per day fast

[mbwatch]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Mbwatch didnt say why the balance that came in the watch needed changing.

I think he was hinting without saying

Yes. The balance needed changing because I ruined the original beyond what I could fix. I started on this watch a year ago when I had developed less experience and dexterity. A relative gave it to me - it had been sitting in a drawer for decades and no one remembered who had owned it. Its initial condition was to run for a few minutes and stop.

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

This means that an accident probably occurred.

Yes again. I don't remember why I initially tried to remove the balance from the balance cock but there must have been a reason. Having only worked on pocket watches before this, or simple clean & oil where the balance didn't need disassembling, this had been the first time I dealt with a wristwatch balance and regulator boot. If I recall, I bent the terminal curve removing it, but was actually able to fix it. Then when reinstalling it, I slipped and totally mangled it. Along the way, there were other problems, loss of Antichoc springs, cap jewels, usual new hobbyist mistakes. I put it aside until I had more experience, leading to today.

The main identifying difference between P72 and P72A listed on Ranfft's archive was a movable stud carrier on the "A" variants. Both my original and donor movement have that movable stud carrier, so I wrongly assumed these were "A" variants (despite the stamp on the plate saying "P72"). 

On ebay, a few listings for balance completes were labeled as P62/P62A, P72/P72A. This I now know is probably incorrect, unless the 72A had an 18000 variant. But it led me to believe they were just interchangeable. Mistake. I bought one from Italy, a NOS Renata balance complete labeled for "P62A/P72A 21". 

Installed that balance and once running I found out that the watch was stopping after a few minutes not because it needed service, but because the pallet fork horns were bent and eventually it would overbank. I managed to fix that fork (surprising right?) and now have it beating away smoothly at the wrong oscillation for its train.

If I choose to fix this, my options are to try again to find and buy the correct 18000 balance complete, or to get another parts movement that is for sure a 72A and swap the necessary train wheels resulting in a hybrid 72/72A with 21 jewels at 21,600bph.

Lessons learned:

• Read ALL details of Dr Ranfft's pages, not just the ones that seem most obviously relevant (that stud carrier)
• The "21" printed on my NOS Renata balance complete probably was an indicator this was a 21,600 beater and not that the movement was 21J as mine is. Watch for that next time
• The caliber stamp under the balance probably tells the truth, despite other identifying details. Look there first and do not attempt to mix parts from movements that seem "similar enough"
• Some ebay sellers may not know what they're really selling (not a new discovery)
• plus a bunch of useful technical lessons as this watch has come together

Edited January 9, 2024 by mbwatch

[Neverenoughwatches]

48 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Yes. The balance needed changing because I ruined the original beyond what I could fix. I started on this watch a year ago when I had developed less experience and dexterity. A relative gave it to me - it had been sitting in a drawer for decades and no one remembered who had owned it. Its initial condition was to run for a few minutes and stop.

Yes again. I don't remember why I initially tried to remove the balance from the balance cock but there must have been a reason. Having only worked on pocket watches before this, or simple clean & oil where the balance didn't need disassembling, this had been the first time I dealt with a wristwatch balance and regulator boot. If I recall, I bent the terminal curve removing it, but was actually able to fix it. Then when reinstalling it, I slipped and totally mangled it. Along the way, there were other problems, loss of Antichoc springs, cap jewels, usual new hobbyist mistakes. I put it aside until I had more experience, leading to today.

The main identifying difference between P72 and P72A listed on Ranfft's archive was a movable stud carrier on the "A" variants. Both my original and donor movement have that movable stud carrier, so I wrongly assumed these were "A" variants (despite the stamp on the plate saying "P72"). 

On ebay, a few listings for balance completes were labeled as P62/P62A, P72/P72A. This I now know is probably incorrect, unless the 72A had an 18000 variant. But it led me to believe they were just interchangeable. Mistake. I bought one from Italy, a NOS Renata balance complete labeled for "P62A/P72A 21". 

Installed that balance and once running I found out that the watch was stopping after a few minutes not because it needed service, but because the pallet fork horns were bent and eventually it would overbank. I managed to fix that fork (surprising right?) and now have it beating away smoothly at the wrong oscillation for its train.

If I choose to fix this, my options are to try again to find and buy the correct 18000 balance complete, or to get another parts movement that is for sure a 72A and swap the necessary train wheels resulting in a hybrid 72/72A with 21 jewels at 21,600bph.

Lessons learned:

• Read ALL details of Dr Ranfft's pages, not just the ones that seem most obviously relevant (that stud carrier)
• The "21" printed on my NOS Renata balance complete probably was an indicator this was a 21,600 beater and not that the movement was 21J as mine is. Watch for that next time
• The caliber stamp under the balance probably tells the truth, despite other identifying details. Look there first and do not attempt to mix parts from movements that seem "similar enough"
• Some ebay sellers may not know what they're really selling (not a new discovery)
• plus a bunch of useful technical lessons as this watch has come together

Those are all brilliant positives for this experience mb, what you've learnt from it will go a long way . I'm still going back to ones i couldn't fix from over two years ago and wondering why on earth i did something to it. 

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Lessons learned:

• Read ALL details of Dr Ranfft's pages, not just the ones that seem most obviously relevant (that stud carrier)
• The "21" printed on my NOS Renata balance complete probably was an indicator this was a 21,600 beater and not that the movement was 21J as mine is. Watch for that next time
• The caliber stamp under the balance probably tells the truth, despite other identifying details. Look there first and do not attempt to mix parts from movements that seem "similar enough"
• Some ebay sellers may not know what they're really selling (not a new discovery)
• plus a bunch of useful technical lessons as this watch has come together

all very good lessons learned then maybe throw in look at a website that allows you to cross reference parts. From people who understand watch parts rather than as you've noticed on eBay if you seen one balance wheel you've seen them all and is it really important these little details obviously not.

eBay sellers can be quite interesting in that often times that will sell stuff they might even specialize in certain items like I was looking for the oscilloscope once and I remember one seller was very clear that he knew nothing at all about our oscilloscope's yet that's all he ever sold which I was found quite interesting. But I suspect the reason for the claim was he would also claim they were unknown condition in that way if they were total rubbish he can't be blamed because he doesn't know what he selling. So a lot of people selling watches obviously are not watchmakers they just buy watches from wherever they do they sell them on eBay and let the buyer beware.

Then it's always nice to use a site like this way can look up your parts and see what they cross reference to get a little more detail.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/