Information please - Seiko 4006 balance complete

[rossjackson01]

 Never.

"remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position". 

Will do. Not done on my first one, but I will use that for practice. Watching all 3 of Chronoglide's  videos on hairsprings. No, 2, first time at present. Watching each one 2 times and making notes before moving on.

Good this hobby innit?

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I can't imagine trying to straighten out a wristwatch hairspring without a microscope, x10 seems just perfect, maybe thats just me. I've not seen it mentioned yet but when you remove the hairspring from the balance, remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position. 

If at all possible,  it might not be perfect if the hairspring is all over the place. But if you can mark it's position it at least gives you a starting point. Traditionally a scratch mark would be placed on the balance wheel, I've even seen dimples punched on to wheel ( dont do that ! )  a dot on the top of the wheel from a fine permanent marker will help you to reposition the hairspring somewhere near.

23 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

 Never.

"remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position". 

Will do. Not done on my first one, but I will use that for practice. Watching all 3 of Chronoglide's  videos on hairsprings. No, 2, first time at present. Watching each one 2 times and making notes before moving on.

Good this hobby innit?

Left you another little not about marking up the balance wheel.

23 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

 Never.

"remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position". 

Will do. Not done on my first one, but I will use that for practice. Watching all 3 of Chronoglide's  videos on hairsprings. No, 2, first time at present. Watching each one 2 times and making notes before moving on.

Good this hobby innit?

You got this Ross, become proficient at shaping and repairing hairsprings and it will open a whole new avenue of watch repair for you. Keep the forum updated with progress, me and many others will be eager to know how it goes. I dont know if you've watched this old video before of the master at work, ive posted it more than once, but i love it. The instruction is great but take some of the ease of doing it with a pinch of salt, thats a bloody big spring he's demonstrating with and he was very good at it.

https://youtu.be/egCwtMMoOCU?si=DoERpimbV6NhqZ99

23 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

 Never.

"remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position". 

Will do. Not done on my first one, but I will use that for practice. Watching all 3 of Chronoglide's  videos on hairsprings. No, 2, first time at present. Watching each one 2 times and making notes before moving on.

Good this hobby innit?

Just noticed something Ross when you reply you write out a quotation from someone. Its possible to click onto part of someone's post then drag it open and copy it like so by clicking quote selection, just if you want to reply to a particular quote in that post  rather than the full post. I cant remember if I've seen you do this before.

Edited January 24, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[rossjackson01]

?????  "remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position". 

Will do. I will use a marker pen, not make a physical scratch.

Question for members. Why mark the outer wheel relative to the stud. Why not at the centre where the collet gap is? 

Excuse my ignorance for the question.

Ross

Sorry about the full size insert in Never's post above. Don't know what happened.

 

Edited January 24, 2024 by rossjackson01

[RichardHarris123]

2 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

?????  "remember to mark the stud's position on the balance wheel so the hairspring fits back on the balance in the same position". 

Will do. I will use a marker pen, not make a physical scratch.

Question for members. Why mark the outer wheel relative to the stud. Why not at the centre where the collet gap is? 

Excuse my ignorance for the question.

Ross

 

Actually I think it's a great question. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

34 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Sorry about the full size insert in Never's post above. Don't know what happened.

That wasn't you Ross , it was me giving  you an example of quote selecting instead of you having to physically write out someone's quote.

34 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Question for members. Why mark the outer wheel relative to the stud. Why not at the centre where the collet gap is? 

Not as accurate Ross and you would need to get under the hairspring to do that, so not a very safe option. But there might be instances when you could do that if you wanted to.

Edited January 24, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[tomh207]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

raditionally a scratch mark would be placed on the balance wheel, I've even seen dimples punched on to wheel ( dont do that ! )

Rich, the dimples are more likely to be from the factory adjustment/dynamic poising 

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Rich, the dimples are more likely to be from the factory adjustment/dynamic poising 

 

Tom

Hi tom,  i know what you are thinking,  the burr cutouts found under the balance wheel to remove weight. No these were punch marks in line with the stud very similar to the gouging marks under a cock. A big bunch of balance completes i bought had these marks. Coincidentally dont buy job lots of balance completes, they will be all fluked, dont ask me how i know

[tomh207]

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi tom,  i know what you are thinking,  the burr cutouts found under the balance wheel to remove weight. No these were punch marks in line with the stud very similar to the gouging marks under a cock. A big bunch of balance completes i bought had these marks. Coincidentally dont buy job lots of balance completes, they will be all fluked, dont ask me how i know

That is so bad Rich, not something you want to see for sure

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

That is so bad Rich, not something you want to see for sure

Tom

I'm ever so pleased you didn't ask me how i know Tom .  No actually it wasn't so bad, it was a big job lot with 120 balance comps many with naffed springs and broken balance pivots, the ones you see on ebay are all like this, they have been swapped out from the container, new for the replaced ones from the watch.  A few are new but not many. You have to ask yourself, why would a watchmaker buy a load of random caliber new bal comps ? He wouldn't, they were for repairs and you end up with the naffed ones out of the watch. Some obviously hated replacing staffs or couldn't straighten out a hairspring, so on the positive side i have plenty of staff replacement practice to get in and Ross has around 30 hairsprings coming his way to fix for me . The lot was fine it had so much other material in it as well screws , springs crowns stems staffs brass tube blue steel rod setting levers there was even a few grams of wierd looking scrap gold in there that i almost threw away until i thought to look for a hallmark, that almost pays for the lot. Some  of the completes will be an easy fix and there is some military among them, one in particular stood out a KF320, have a guess what movement that fits into. So yes it could have been better but it was still good and kept me quiet for a day sorting it all out.

[tomh207]

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm ever so pleased you didn't ask me how i know Tom .  No actually it wasn't so bad, it was a big job lot with 120 balance comps many with naffed springs and broken balance pivots, the ones you see on ebay are all like this, they have been swapped out from the container, new for the replaced ones from the watch.  A few are new but not many. You have to ask yourself, why would a watchmaker buy a load of random caliber new bal comps ? He wouldn't, they were for repairs and you end up with the naffed ones out of the watch. Some obviously hated replacing staffs or couldn't straighten out a hairspring, so on the positive side i have plenty of staff replacement practice to get in and Ross has around 30 hairsprings coming his way to fix for me . The lot was fine it had so much other material in it as well screws , springs crowns stems staffs brass tube blue steel rod setting levers there was even a few grams of wierd looking scrap gold in there that i almost threw away until i thought to look for a hallmark, that almost pays for the lot. Some  of the completes will be an easy fix and there is some military among them, one in particular stood out a KF320, have a guess what movement that fits into. So yes it could have been better but it was still good and kept me quiet for a day sorting it all out.

Fits in the legendary Grana Rich?

always though, “where’s there’s muck there’s brass”

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Fits in the legendary Grana Rich?

always though, “where’s there’s muck there’s brass”

Tom

Correct Tom, i may never see one but i have a complete balance for it . That calibre is used in a few watches really not just the WWW grana. These lots are great if you can repair stuff, thats why I'm so keen on me and everyone else starting out learning the old skills like fixing hairsprings. Parts are running out they must be, in 10 years time this hobby the way its going will be much more repair than replace unless something changes. You know as well as me Tom, that we are 30 years too late to the game for it to be any more than just a game.  I've made myself sad now    

[tomh207]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Correct Tom, i may never see one but i have a complete balance for it . That calibre is used in a few watches really not just the WWW grana. These lots are great if you can repair stuff, thats why I'm so keen on me and everyone else starting out learning the old skills like fixing hairsprings. Parts are running out they must be, in 10 years time this hobby the way its going will be much more repair than replace unless something changes. You know as well as me Tom, that we are 30 years too late to the game for it to be any more than just a game.  I've made myself sad now    

As long as we have sheer **BLEEP** mindedness to never be beaten we still have a chance 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

As long as we have sheer **BLEEP** mindedness to never be beaten we still have a chance 

Tom

If we enjoy it thats the main thing now. But it will get more difficult to get parts i feel sure. I bet this hobby has grown massively in the last few years, you only have to look at the price increases of new and old watches to work that out. I remember Frank saying a while back." Gone are the good old days of being able to just swap the complete balance " or words to that effect. This is why there are guys like Kalle Slapp that are desperate to become totally self dependent for watch parts. The repair industry just needs someone with a yard full of cash to step up and start manufacturing obsolete parts.

[rossjackson01]

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

The repair industry just needs someone with a yard full of cash to step up and start manufacturing obsolete parts.

Not going to happen. But you are so right.

[LittleWatchShop]

3 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Question for members. Why mark the outer wheel relative to the stud. Why not at the centre where the collet gap is? 

It is in the math.  What is important is the angle of the collet (pick the slot as the reference) with respect to the roller table. The sensitivity of the angle to the mark is inversely proportional to the radius.  Mark it on the rim of the balance wheel.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Not going to happen. But you are so right.

I might agree with you Ross, but how difficult could it be ? Cnc machines these days can knock up just about anything. 3D scanning, profile imaging , technology has advanced so much now. The Tornos micro production machines are amazing. Why is it that swiss manufacturing monopolise this industry ?  Surely Cousins have the finance to reproduce at least some of their own basic stock instead of labeling half their items as OBSOLETE.  If i won the lottery i would definitely have some plan down that path.

[RichardHarris123]

If anyone thought it was a viable business plan then someone would do it, supply and demand.  Yes, there are thousands of us out there but a majority are working on relatively cheap watches, after buying all the tooling, programming etc the parts will cost far more than the watch.  The future for all but high end watch parts is make them yourself.  

[LittleWatchShop]

12 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If anyone thought it was a viable business plan then someone would do it, supply and demand. 

Correct!  You cannot build a business making parts.  You can build a business making movements generating revenue and profit...the parts are a byproduct.  All of the capx is for the machines making the movements and you (kinda) get extra parts for free.

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If anyone thought it was a viable business plan then someone would do it, supply and demand.  

You would think so, maybe just needs someone brave enough to have a go. Would be interesting putting some figures together. I remember discussing with nickelsilver a similar venture for someone to make jewel bearings, the start up cost was much less than i expected.

[rossjackson01]

As you say. 3D may give rise to a parts making organisation. There is a book that gives visuals of all watch parts. Not sure of the name. I think it has the word 'Best' in the title. Chronoglide has displayed it a few times.

Edited January 24, 2024 by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

As you say. 3D may give rise to a parts making organisation. There is a book that gives visuals of all watch parts. Not sure of the name. I think it has the word 'Best' in the title. Chronoglide has displayed it a few times.

There are still many parts available for samples at the moment but for how long ? Lots of assumptions but i just wonder how much to set up and what the real demand is ?