I'm back from the dead. Gonna try and bring a well cared for bell matic back from the dead too.

[rossjackson01]

Birbdad

"Also since you've worked on these, how does that mainspring look to you? i got it pretty much perfectly flat, just unsure what a worn out one looks like".

There is a 'kink' where the tail inserts with the main section.

However, as I assume the project is for yourself, I agree with Waggy. I would re-use the mainspring.  If it's a project for someone else, then I would source a new one. Be careful when you re-insert. I would use a winder for that and not by hand. I've tried a few by hand that looked like that, and they snapped at that point. Be very careful.

 

Alarm. 

I was lucky. I followed Adams video who had the same problem as you. However, I set mine originally at 12. Worked OK. 

Although I wear the watch I never have the alarm wound now. I leave it at 9. 

I have my own problem with the latest. But am dealing with that on my own 4006 posting.

 

Great fun this hobby though

Ross

 

 

 

[Birbdad]

8 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Birbdad

"Also since you've worked on these, how does that mainspring look to you? i got it pretty much perfectly flat, just unsure what a worn out one looks like".

There is a 'kink' where the tail inserts with the main section.

However, as I assume the project is for yourself, I agree with Waggy. I would re-use the mainspring.  If it's a project for someone else, then I would source a new one. Be careful when you re-insert. I would use a winder for that and not by hand. I've tried a few by hand that looked like that, and they snapped at that point. Be very careful.

 

Alarm. 

I was lucky. I followed Adams video who had the same problem as you. However, I set mine originally at 12. Worked OK. 

Although I wear the watch I never have the alarm wound now. I leave it at 9. 

I have my own problem with the latest. But am dealing with that on my own 4006 posting.

 

Great fun this hobby though

Ross

 

 

 

So correct me if i'm wrong but that kink in the tail section is on all seiko mainsprings? I believe it's where it overlaps the end in the barrel. And yes this is just for me. 

I do have a winder, i'll have to pick one up for the alarm spring. Not 70 bucks i want to spend but oh well.

[rossjackson01]

Alarm spring is ok to wind by hand. Not had a problem with that. 

The 'kink', on a correct spring should never be there. It's a weak point now. Be careful. Yes it can be done by hand, but do it very slow and do not force when you get to the overlap.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Alarm spring is ok to wind by hand. Not had a problem with that. 

The 'kink', on a correct spring should never be there. It's a weak point now. Be careful. Yes it can be done by hand, but do it very slow and do not force when you get to the overlap.

So that kink is there on brand new seiko mainsprings taken out of the barrel. Another post here illustrated why it's there. I'll copy from them. I've confirmed this myself when i transferred a brand new mainspring from an nh36 barrel into a 7006. As for doing it by hand, that's such a controversial thing among professionals, i'm trying to learn best practices here, plus i'd like to build up a library of winders for all my movements as i'll be servicing them at later times, and maybe as gig money jobs, so i'm gonna definitely get a winder for the alarm spring.

Quote

you can see a weird shape when it in the barrel, caused by the bridle of the spring, and when it is out of the barrel, you'll see a small kink also caused by the bridle. So the two areas the I've marked on the pics below are normal and they are not kinks.

 

[Birbdad]

Whelp, hit my second snag and i'm utterly baffled by it. Polished up the shiny parts of the case and put all the case and bracelet parts in some evaporust as there was some light pitting in thankfully non visible areas, mostly around the underside of the caseback and and where the crystal will slot in.


Then i did my wash in my extremely fancy swiss watch cleaning machine. I do it over the bathtub in case the ipa rinses or naphtha burst into flames. Swiss quality ain't what it used to be.



Right after my wash i noticed my f'ing small parts basket with my screws and capjewels opened up, i figured no big deal, those baskets are in a basket and if somehow something can get through the mesh it'll be in my wash or rinse jars. I carefully remove all the big parts and start pulling the screws and hook springs out of the basket and realize a hook spring is missing. Find it at the bottom of a rinse jar, that was a pain in the ass to get out. I find both my chatones, both my diafixes and one of the cap jewels. I figure the other is under a pile of screws, as i'm pulling out the screws i see the cap jewel, at least i'm 99% sure i did. Figure i'll get it when there's not a ton of screws on it. Transfer each screw from the basket into a my tray....now where's that cap jewel. 

It's gone. Just gone. I never even tried to grab it, it was simply in my basket with holes too small for it to fall through and then it was gone. I'm losin my mind over this -_-. It's been a LONG time since i lost a part and i'm just in disbelief how it disappeared at all. it seems to violate the laws of physics. NOt only does the jewel not fit through the holes in the mesh basket but i was so afraid something would i made sure to have the basket in a cup while i pulled the big stuff out. While i pulled the screws out i made sure to never have it not over my mat. Nothing fell out best i can tell but the cap jewel has just vanished. 

Does ANYBODY either know if these cap jewels are compatible with other seiko movements or have a spare they'd be interested in selling? Cousins doesn't sell them.

[thor447]

48 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Does ANYBODY either know if these cap jewels are compatible with other seiko movements or have a spare they'd be interested in selling? Cousins doesn't sell them.

Are you missing your upper or lower cap jewel? Movement compatibility is as follows:

Also, you might reach out to eBay user:  Vintage Seiko4ever (VTS)

I've sourced a few hard to find Seiko jewels from them, even one's that weren't listed on eBay.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, thor447 said:

Are you missing your upper or lower cap jewel? Movement compatibility is as follows:

Also, you might reach out to eBay user:  Vintage Seiko4ever (VTS)

I've sourced a few hard to find Seiko jewels from them, even one's that weren't listed on eBay.

Ok...i have no clue which one is gone. I didn't even know they were different parts. fml... How on earth do you tell them apart? They looked identical to me. Thanks for this. Sadly i don't have any of those movements.

EDIT: I did find from somebody that the top jewel is thicker and that's how you can tell them apart. Does anybody have a 4006 they're working on or a salvage movement and want to measure the size of the cap jewels with some calipers? Perhaps @rossjackson01 if you're working on one and got it open like you mentioned. 

Double edit: I did reach out to vintage seiko forever  They have the lower for some insane shipping and i have a feeling that's what i need. I can't be sure though unless i know the thickness of them to figure out which one i got.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2024 by Birbdad

[Razz]

57 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Ok...i have no clue which one is gone. I didn't even know they were different parts. fml... How on earth do you tell them apart? They looked identical to me. Thanks for this. Sadly i don't have any of those movements.

EDIT: I did find from somebody that the top jewel is thicker and that's how you can tell them apart. Does anybody have a 4006 they're working on or a salvage movement and want to measure the size of the cap jewels with some calipers? Perhaps @rossjackson01 if you're working on one and got it open like you mentioned. 

Double edit: I did reach out to vintage seiko forever  They have the lower for some insane shipping and i have a feeling that's what i need. I can't be sure though unless i know the thickness of them to figure out which one i got.

 

 

Major bummer. I assume you checked all the crevices of the baskets where they join with the solid brass?

[Birbdad]

34 minutes ago, Razz said:

Major bummer. I assume you checked all the crevices of the baskets where they join with the solid brass?

Yeah, i've checked everything imaginable. I lost parts when i first got started on this but it was always when i was developing my tweezer skills and they would just slip away. This one was just...sitting in a basket. I knew when i realized the basket opened some parts might be able to fall through the mesh of the larger basket they were all in so i made sure to retain everything, even put that basket in a cup while i got the big parts out. When it came time to get the screws and jewels i made sure it never left my mat. 

I'm utterly baffled. And goin a little crazy because I don't know what even happened and I did everything right...

 

EDIT: I ended up purchasing one of each and his gasket set from Vintage Seiko Forever on ebay. Ugh. Expensive mistake. Just will have to be extra careful i guess in the future.

2 hours ago, thor447 said:

Are you missing your upper or lower cap jewel? Movement compatibility is as follows:

Also, you might reach out to eBay user:  Vintage Seiko4ever (VTS)

I've sourced a few hard to find Seiko jewels from them, even one's that weren't listed on eBay.

Hey, where did you find this list? Is this from some database i should know about? Thanks for posting it man.

Edited January 28, 2024 by Birbdad

[rossjackson01]

Birbdad

I know you said you have looked. I had the same problem with one of my 4006. Jewel. Yes it's there. No it's not. Bummer. Took me 3 minutes to find it. 

I had spent £3.75 on a little UV torch. Inserted the batteries. Switched it on. Turned off the room lights. There it was, lying on the table, next to the bottom of the computer. How did it get there. Who cares? Found it.

Jewels shine and glow in UV.

One of the good bits of advice from members. Saved me a lot of time and money.

Hope this helps.

[Birbdad]

2 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Birbdad

I know you said you have looked. I had the same problem with one of my 4006. Jewel. Yes it's there. No it's not. Bummer. Took me 3 minutes to find it. 

I had spent £3.75 on a little UV torch. Inserted the batteries. Switched it on. Turned off the room lights. There it was, lying on the table, next to the bottom of the computer. How did it get there. Who cares? Found it.

Jewels shine and glow in UV.

One of the good bits of advice from members. Saved me a lot of time and money.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, somebody on my watchmakers discord just told me about this. I think i'll pick one up for future mishaps.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Whelp, hit my second snag and i'm utterly baffled by it. Polished up the shiny parts of the case and put all the case and bracelet parts in some evaporust as there was some light pitting in thankfully non visible areas, mostly around the underside of the caseback and and where the crystal will slot in.


Then i did my wash in my extremely fancy swiss watch cleaning machine. I do it over the bathtub in case the ipa rinses or naphtha burst into flames. Swiss quality ain't what it used to be.



Right after my wash i noticed my f'ing small parts basket with my screws and capjewels opened up, i figured no big deal, those baskets are in a basket and if somehow something can get through the mesh it'll be in my wash or rinse jars. I carefully remove all the big parts and start pulling the screws and hook springs out of the basket and realize a hook spring is missing. Find it at the bottom of a rinse jar, that was a pain in the ass to get out. I find both my chatones, both my diafixes and one of the cap jewels. I figure the other is under a pile of screws, as i'm pulling out the screws i see the cap jewel, at least i'm 99% sure i did. Figure i'll get it when there's not a ton of screws on it. Transfer each screw from the basket into a my tray....now where's that cap jewel. 

It's gone. Just gone. I never even tried to grab it, it was simply in my basket with holes too small for it to fall through and then it was gone. I'm losin my mind over this -_-. It's been a LONG time since i lost a part and i'm just in disbelief how it disappeared at all. it seems to violate the laws of physics. NOt only does the jewel not fit through the holes in the mesh basket but i was so afraid something would i made sure to have the basket in a cup while i pulled the big stuff out. While i pulled the screws out i made sure to never have it not over my mat. Nothing fell out best i can tell but the cap jewel has just vanished. 

Does ANYBODY either know if these cap jewels are compatible with other seiko movements or have a spare they'd be interested in selling? Cousins doesn't sell them.

It probably hitched a ride on something as you lifted out the big pieces. Are you sure its not hiding on the plate or a bridge. This is exactly why i take out the chatons and caps and put them straight into separate alcohol jars to sit. 

[thor447]

4 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Hey, where did you find this list? Is this from some database i should know about? Thanks for posting it man.

That's from the JulesBorel.com watch parts database.

[rossjackson01]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It probably hitched a ride on something as you lifted out the big pieces. Are you sure its not hiding on the plate or a bridge. This is exactly why i take out the chatons and caps and put them straight into separate alcohol jars to sit. 

I agree with Never. When working on my first 4006, I lost an intermediate date driving wheel when I removed the calendar plate. Looked everywhere. Ended up buying  a replacement. Part came and I went to put all parts through my cleaning process. Guess what I found on the underside of the calendar plate? Now I always do what others do in the videos. I turn all parts over to do a check.  We are always wise after the event.

[Birbdad]

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It probably hitched a ride on something as you lifted out the big pieces. Are you sure its not hiding on the plate or a bridge. This is exactly why i take out the chatons and caps and put them straight into separate alcohol jars to sit. 

From now on i will do this. I checked every piece I think, it didn't end up on any of my other pieces best i can tell -_-

7 hours ago, thor447 said:

That's from the JulesBorel.com watch parts database.

So just HOW do you get the internal parts to come up? I try searching movements and get nothing. I enter case code and i get only case parts. What exactly did you type for it to even recognize 4006 movement?

[thor447]

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

From now on i will do this. I checked every piece I think, it didn't end up on any of my other pieces best i can tell -_-

So just HOW do you get the internal parts to come up? I try searching movements and get nothing. I enter case code and i get only case parts. What exactly did you type for it to even recognize 4006 movement?

It's easiest to just pick the manufacturer from the list below the search feature, then pick out your movement.  That database has zero forgiveness for search terms that don't fit their exact naming conventions.

[Birbdad]

While i wait for my new jewel to come in i figured i might as well try to catalog the 500 screw types that go into this thing and i feel like i'm losing my mind. I photographed every single screw set and even still i cannot tell which one is which here. Am i crazy or are all six of these the same damn screw lol. Because there's at a minimum 3 different part numbers. Three of these are my bridge screws and none of them look like the picture of the bridge screw in the service sheet! 

[mikepilk]

When disassembling I keep the screws and the corresponding components together. Or if it's a complicated movement, put some of the screws back in the mainplate before cleaning.

A lot of times the screws have different part numbers, but they are the same screw. Sometimes on the service sheets it shows this.

[Birbdad]

2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

When disassembling I keep the screws and the corresponding components together. Or if it's a complicated movement, put some of the screws back in the mainplate before cleaning.

A lot of times the screws have different part numbers, but they are the same screw. Sometimes on the service sheets it shows this.

So i was WONDERING if for some reason they were duplicates with the same damn part number. What made me think they couldn't be is there is one set of 5 screws that are one part number but listed 3 times under the materials list for their different places. It seems very odd that would do this for some screws but not for others.

And yeah i'd have liked to have kept them with the parts but then i would basically have to do like 10 washes to keep them all together. I currently have one large basket and 3 small parts baskets. 

I think what i might do next time i work on a movement this complicated is just wash the screws in their own wash by set by just swirling them in a wash and then rinse solution and bagging them up by part number. 

EDIT: ok i'm really thinking seiko just got sloppy with their technical sheet and weren't consistent and those probably are all the same screws just given different part numbers despite other duplicate screws used in several places were not. 

One thing that makes me think they were sloppy is i was baffled as to why i had a screw left over after going through the material list. They forgot to list the balance cock screw on both lists lol. These are mostly unique screw types. What a pain in the ass. I will definitely prioritize organization next time i work on something like this.

[rossjackson01]

Like you. I've had trouble with screws. My fault I may add. All parts into different areas. only used 4 sections. Screws became mixed when after cleaning replaced them into an area.

Learned my lesson. 

I now use box which has top and bottom compartments. 6 Bottom for case and strap. 24 Top for all others.

It does mean that I put each section into a differnet cleaning basket. It's worth it. Now I know what screw goes with what part. 

[mikepilk]

As @rossjackson01 says, all parts in separate compartments, then in mini cleaning baskets, and the baskets in  a cheap plastic holder (you can get 4 or 5 in )which nicely fits a jam jar.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, rossjackson01 said:

Like you. I've had trouble with screws. My fault I may add. All parts into different areas. only used 4 sections. Screws became mixed when after cleaning replaced them into an area.

Learned my lesson. 

I now use box which has top and bottom compartments. 6 Bottom for case and strap. 24 Top for all others.

It does mean that I put each section into a differnet cleaning basket. It's worth it. Now I know what screw goes with what part. 

This is one of the best ideas for not mixing up the screws Ross. Parts and corresponding screws are put together in seperate compartments. The complete tray is photographed then all parts and obvious screws are washed and placed back into their compartments as they were. I then clean and refurbish the screws separately by hand, also the balance jewels, end pieces,  pallet fork and balance assembly i like to hand clean.

[rossjackson01]

41 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This is one of the best ideas for not mixing up the screws Ross. Parts and corresponding screws are put together in seperate compartments. The complete tray is photographed then all parts and obvious screws are washed and placed back into their compartments as they were. I then clean and refurbish the screws separately by hand, also the balance jewels, end pieces,  pallet fork and balance assembly i like to hand clean.

Have to admit it Never. Got the photograph idea from you. Good innit. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Have to admit it Never. Got the photograph idea from you. Good innit. 

Each and every project brings a new adventure

[Birbdad]

15 hours ago, mikepilk said:

As @rossjackson01 says, all parts in separate compartments, then in mini cleaning baskets, and the baskets in  a cheap plastic holder (you can get 4 or 5 in )which nicely fits a jam jar.

 

Yeah, I would have had to do like 15 cleaning operations or more to keep them all segregated that whole time. In HINDSIGHT that actually would have been quicker than what i did last night haha. 

But as @Neverenoughwatches says, each project brings new adventures and new lessons. After this one ill be doing that on super complex watches (On 7s26 all the screws are easy to tell apart.), pick up a few more small parts baskets and just take my time and keep things segregated. I just did not even realize just HOW similar a lot of these screws are. The weirdly inconsistent tech sheet didn't help.