Is this pivot broken

[quantieme]

Hi all, I fell stupid for even asking this but does anyone think the top pivot is broken (the hairspring side). my eyes cannot quite make it out even with this magnification,  I serviced this watch 2 years ago and it has just come back to me , the owner said very rarely wore it just been sitting in a drawer takes it out a few times a year to wind it. last time he took it out it had stopped working. It was fully wound when returned to me and as soon as i slackened of the balance cock screw it started running, re tighten it stopped. literally half turn of the scvrew would start it running and in dial down position on the timegrapher it ran perfectly dial up terrible -897 and like it was magnetized so I assumed a broken or damaged pivot or dirt etc, when i took the balance off the cock as shown in the pics the first thing I see is a tiny piece of metal stuck to the underside prob 0.1 mm in length which I took to be the tip of the pivot but looking at the staff under the microscope I am not sure, what does anyone think. the watch is a vintage 1930s gruen curvex cal 440.

[watchweasol]

Hi the balance in the picture looks ok both pivots intact, did toe find the bit of metal in the movement, if so may have been from a previous break and not recovered.

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, the pivot is not broken. Image definition is not too good, but even the head of the pivot looks OK, no signs of wear seen.

[quantieme]

no that little bit of metal was stuck to the underside of the balance cock hence i assumed a broken pivot, you have confirmed what i really thought so i an thinking just dirt or congealed oil, the balance pivot was black on the end and i have now cleaned it and polishes it a bit, i have stripped the cock and cleaned the jewel and cap so will put back together and hope this solves the problem. thanks for the input.

[watchweasol]

Hi   did you find it under the cock,   between the cock and the main plate if so be careful fitting the balance as someone may have been shimming the balance to increase the end shake.

[quantieme]

no it was under the cock near the jewel hole not between the main plate and the cock.

[watchweasol]

Hi with this bit of metal removed and balance fitted  does the watch run.If so it’s probably historic, a pivot lost in the works, but having said that I would dismantle the watch clean/service and start with a clean sheet.

 

[quantieme]

no it still did not run properly even with the balance stripped and cleaned. It ran very slow on the amplitude almost stopping . I have now completely stripped it and cleaned it  and will start from scratch. I did notice that the mainspring seemed to be partly set so I have ordered a new one with my thinking being that the spring was not putting out enough power to move the balance as also if I touched the centre wheel it started the balance running properly. Fingers crossed that will be the answer.

[JohnR725]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:29 AM, quantieme said:

vintage 1930s gruen curvex cal 440.

One of the things that helps on these discussions is a name like we have above sometimes a picture is nice to see what were talking about

http://www.gruenwristwatches.com/440-movement.php

On 2/7/2024 at 7:29 AM, quantieme said:

I serviced this watch 2 years ago and it has just come back to me , the owner said very rarely wore it just been sitting in a drawer takes it out a few times a year to wind it. last time he took it out it had stopped working. It was fully wound when returned to me and as soon as i slackened of the balance cock screw it started running, re tighten it stopped. literally half turn of the scvrew would start it running and in dial down position on the timegrapher it ran perfectly dial up terrible -897 and like it was magnetized so I assumed

So we have a interesting background history. Also it's always nice if you show us the timing machine results so we can see what it actually looks like it helps for us trying to diagnose.

3 hours ago, quantieme said:

I did notice that the mainspring seemed to be partly set so I have ordered a new one with my thinking being that the spring was not putting out enough power to move the balance as also if I touched the centre wheel it started the balance running properly. Fingers crossed that will be the answer.

When you service the watch the first time did you change the mainspring? Because one of the problems with especially original spring is the blue steel ones they definitely have a habit of setting. Then unfortunately vintage old new stock mainsprings also have a habit of setting. With the added bonus now that the quality of some modern Springs isn't much better than the original Springs.

 

[quantieme]

yes it was an vintage new old stock blue steel spring that I had in my stock, the new one that I have ordered from cousins appears to be a new one which as i type this has just turned up, also interestingly the size given on the Gruen website for the spring is different from the one in the GR catalogue (Gr2631 H 1.10 x T 0.11 x L 240 BD 8.5). I take your point about pictures I will endeavor to include them in future posts.

[quantieme]

definitely set.

well the spring did not work, balance was still the same running intermittently and has now stopped altogether. Having a good look it is possible looks like the balance spring is slightly bent and is rubbing on the balance arm. Anyone know where I can get a new balance from for a 440 or 335 cal. 

best i can do pic wise