So who actually uses a winder for seiko mainsprings?

[Birbdad]

So i had heard from most of the people here that seiko mainsprings being very short in height are really a challenge to use in winders and seem to just randomly get eaten by them. I got my winder, used a worn out old test spring to practice and sure enough it got eaten. Decided to yolo it and test it on on another practice spring, it went as planned and i did it three times in a row with no issue. Since then i've serviced 3 barrels, no issue with the winder. 

Fast forward a year or so i'm back working on watches and i cannot for the life of me get the damn thing to work. I'm at 3 mainsprings eaten in a row now, one of them brand new. This is starting to get expensive. Mark back when he posted here would fervently say never pack a mainspring by hand as it takes it out of flat, damages the barrel yadayada. I see him and other professional youtube watchmakers with ease wind these short seiko mainspring winders by hand, what am i missing here?!

The issue is of course that these mainsprings have a very short height, so once you put them in there's two directions they want to unravel in randomly, if you press hard on the top as you wind and slightly depress the plunger , it can keep it in a coil....but then you need a hand to put the bridle. If you release the plunger or turn the crank it unravels, so that's one more hand than i have that seems to be required for the job. 

 

Does anybody have any tips to use these things and avoid this? Watching him do it he's not pressing on the plunger that i can tell yet his mainspring doesn't try to uncoil itself in the winder like mine and so many people's here do.

[Malocchio]

It is a bit tricky and catastrophes happen. Keeping some pressure on the plunger with a palm helps keep the space inside the cylinder smaller. When pushing the bridle in with hand the other hand has to keep winder tight against the handle and also prevent it from unwinding. Once the bridle is comptletely inside, wind backwards to unhook the spring. Then with exacto knife carefully pry out the winder/arbor enough so that you can fit tweezers inside. Pull arbor off while securing spring with tweezers. Put handle tightly against level surface and press plunger to pack the spring level with the edge. If the spring spring is old and not so level it's harder to get it wound inside the handle. Yeah really stressful. Better have new mainsprings in stock in case you fail, it takes off some of the pressure 

[steve855]

I made a couple of winders for Seiko mainsprings.  I didn't feel like trying to sort out all the details of which bergeon to buy, or taking a chance on a chineses set.  The one shown here is for 70xx series movements.  It's not a thing of beauty, but it works pretty much 100% of the time if I do it properly.  Looking at the photo reminds me how I should get a nicer knurling tool!

The housing and plunger are acetal, the arbor is brass.  I also have one for 61xx series barrels.  The only difficult part was making the hook on the arbor.  The rest is really just standard lathe work.

[Birbdad]

Ok, i feel like an idiot. I jUST Realized why it was so easy before. I was sorting my mainspring winders and arbors and found a six left hand arbor....i dont' own a six winder and i was wondering why on earth i have it. I use a 7 winder so i grabbed the 7 arbor as it's technically correct for this. 

What you use is a SEVEN winder with a SIX arbor...the top disc of the arbor will then recess into the winder and and THAT'S what takes up the slack space and keep the coil flat. 

I've ruined 3 damn springs on this thing and could not figure out why. I got the six arbor cuz a member HERE kept urging me to do it saying it makes your life so much easier. The thing actually works as expected if you do this trick.

1 hour ago, Malocchio said:

It is a bit tricky and catastrophes happen. Keeping some pressure on the plunger with a palm helps keep the space inside the cylinder smaller. When pushing the bridle in with hand the other hand has to keep winder tight against the handle and also prevent it from unwinding. Once the bridle is comptletely inside, wind backwards to unhook the spring. Then with exacto knife carefully pry out the winder/arbor enough so that you can fit tweezers inside. Pull arbor off while securing spring with tweezers. Put handle tightly against level surface and press plunger to pack the spring level with the edge. If the spring spring is old and not so level it's harder to get it wound inside the handle. Yeah really stressful. Better have new mainsprings in stock in case you fail, it takes off some of the pressure 

What arbor/winder do you use? If you use a 7 for both on 7xxx series watches, read what i just wrote. 

1 hour ago, steve855 said:

 

Oh wow, i guess you got a cnc machine or something? Very cool!

[Malocchio]

3 hours ago, Birbdad said:

 

What arbor/winder do you use? If you use a 7 for both on 7xxx series watches, read what i just wrote.

I haven't used them for a while but I think it was #7 for 6xxx and #6 for 7xxx. I tried mixing the parts for some reason but I didn't like the winder recessing in the handle. Maybe I'll try it next time. I think I have #6 arbor bought separately. I only have those two sizes from Bergeon. Might be nice to have a winder you could custom build for different barrel and arbor sizes. Dear people of China the tip's free!

[steve855]

15 hours ago, Birbdad said:

 

Oh wow, i guess you got a cnc machine or something? Very cool!

Thanks, no cnc, just a manual lathe.  

[Birbdad]

16 hours ago, Malocchio said:

I haven't used them for a while but I think it was #7 for 6xxx and #6 for 7xxx. I tried mixing the parts for some reason but I didn't like the winder recessing in the handle. Maybe I'll try it next time. I think I have #6 arbor bought separately. I only have those two sizes from Bergeon. Might be nice to have a winder you could custom build for different barrel and arbor sizes. Dear people of China the tip's free!

The recess is what makes it work. Keeps the spring coiled and gives it nowhere to go. 

[Levine98]

Resurrecting an old thread (and have posted in FB group on this as well.

The main issue is vintage Seiko mainspring height is 1.0mm or below and the depth of the nbr 7 mainspring winder is about 2.0mm

So when you wind the spring in the winder, unless you can keep it taught and pressed against the head of the arbor by pressing on the plunger constantly (which is nearly impossible), the spring unravels as you wind /unwind it.

I’m wondering if I you shave down the top of the winder to reduce its height and come closer to the 1.0mm height, might make it work better. I have a spare nbr 7 winder and I might just give this a try (I can file and grind as I have a table top disc sander that I converted to a lapping machine).

does this make sense?

Edited 6 hours ago by Levine98

[mikepilk]

On 3/4/2024 at 7:00 AM, Birbdad said:

So i had heard from most of the people here that seiko mainsprings being very short in height are really a challenge to use in winders

I've never heard of this . 
I've never had a problem - but my winders aren't  Ber££eon. 

I just checked the depth of my 10.8mm winder as 1.4mm

Why not just put a washer in the winder?

Edited 5 hours ago by mikepilk

[Levine98]

7 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I've never heard of this . 
I've never had a problem - but my winders aren't  Ber££eon. 

I just checked the depth of my 10.8mm winder as 1.4mm

Why not just put a washer in the winder?

Hey, that’s a good idea!!! That’s why I come to this forum, seriously, never dawned on me.

regarding never having heard of this problem, you mean winding seiko mainsprings?  I thought that was what this thread was about?

Will let the forum know how this works out—great idea. Jay

[mikepilk]

44 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

Hey, that’s a good idea!!! That’s why I come to this forum, seriously, never dawned on me.

Same here. Sometimes things are too obvious to see 

45 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

regarding never having heard of this problem, you mean winding seiko mainsprings?

I have never heard of this problem with Seiko mainsprings. I never noticed them to be thinner than any other brands. The only movement I had real problems with was an Eterna I have - the spring was 1.1mm width, but that wasn't the problem. That was that the arbor was ridiculously small - just over 2mm from memory. Broke 2 springs trying to get the inner coil small  enough.

[Levine98]

Not thinner, height is issue in the winder.  If the mainspring isn’t compressed top/bottom in the winder it tends to unravel if you can’t keep the pressure on it via the plunger.

Width of the arbor can be a problem too but I’ve been able to use #7 arbors without issue. I do know some folks use #6 arbors in #7 winders.

Edited 4 hours ago by Levine98

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, Levine98 said:

Not thinner, height is issue in the winder.

Sorry, by thinner I meant thinner in height. As I suggested, just put a suitable washer in the winder, and problem solved