Waltham A-11 Hairspring and Balance assessment help needed.

[VanDan]

Hi folks,

I am working on my second restoration, a really beat up Waltham A-11 (6/0 '42 movement).

I've gotten the easier stuff cleaned and assessed and now I find myself staring down the balance and hairspring for cleaning and realizing that I'm not sure if the hairspring is even viable.

Here's the stuff I'm hoping wiser, more experienced hands can help me with.

1. I was reading about some hairsprings having a Breguet coil - looking at the parts list for this watch, part # 26218 is listed as Balance, Complete D. R. Breguet. Is that indicative that this watch should have one? 

2.  If it should have the Breguet coil, does this look like it's intact? I couldn't find any good reference images for what it should look like. 

3. I circled two spots (labelled A and B) in the first image. Are these areas where bends should be? I'm thinking A is damage and B is part of what a Breguet coil would look like? Curious to hear what more experienced eyes think.

4. Looking at the balance staff, it looks like maybe the bottom pivot is slightly bent? If so, is it bent enough that it would cause issues? Can pivots be straightened and if so, what kind of tool is suggested?

5. How the heck does the block at the end of the hairspring attach to the balance cock? I unscrewed it fine, but I can't figure out how it would reattach. The first watch I fixed was an AS 1187, the hairspring nub(what is this block called?) just slotted in and tightened, but I don't see how the mechanism would work here. Final image is of the underside of the balance cock.

6. Last question - I have an ultrasonic cleaner, tons of 99% IPA and warm soapy water. My understanding on a watch this old was not to put the hairspring or pallet fork in IPA as it could dissolve the shellac on the jewels. I don't yet have access to OneDip yet, are there safe alternatives to use? I'm in Canada, if that matters. I've read a lot of threads with folks saying they use lighter fluid, is that actually safe?

So far, this watch is getting the following replaced:
Mainspring (old - blue steel with a decent amount of corrosion present)
Barrel arbor (hook is gone)
Hack (broken)
Escape wheel (broken pinion)
Click spring (was entirely missing when the watch arrived)
Crystal (the original one is comically yellow and spiderwebbed with cracks)

It's been a fun journey so far, I'm really enjoying the slow, intentional work and care needed to do this properly.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can share. 

[Bonefixer]

Newbie here too, but I’ve done a bit of reading around this subject. Looks like a Breguet overcoil. You’re right about A and B - A is just a minor tweak - but most damage is between B and the stud. 
 

Pivots can be unbent, but there’s a high risk of breaking it off. Take care, and probably see how it runs before trying. 
 

That’s really dirty. I’ve never found IPA to loosen Shellac. If you’re worried, put it in soapy water in the ultrasonic and then dip it in IPA as a quick rinse to displace the water and prevent rusting. 
 

As for the stud - does it wedge in the angle and the screw holds it there?

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, VanDan said:

Hi folks,

I am working on my second restoration, a really beat up Waltham A-11 (6/0 '42 movement).

I've gotten the easier stuff cleaned and assessed and now I find myself staring down the balance and hairspring for cleaning and realizing that I'm not sure if the hairspring is even viable.

Here's the stuff I'm hoping wiser, more experienced hands can help me with.

1. I was reading about some hairsprings having a Breguet coil - looking at the parts list for this watch, part # 26218 is listed as Balance, Complete D. R. Breguet. Is that indicative that this watch should have one? 

2.  If it should have the Breguet coil, does this look like it's intact? I couldn't find any good reference images for what it should look like. 

3. I circled two spots (labelled A and B) in the first image. Are these areas where bends should be? I'm thinking A is damage and B is part of what a Breguet coil would look like? Curious to hear what more experienced eyes think.

4. Looking at the balance staff, it looks like maybe the bottom pivot is slightly bent? If so, is it bent enough that it would cause issues? Can pivots be straightened and if so, what kind of tool is suggested?

5. How the heck does the block at the end of the hairspring attach to the balance cock? I unscrewed it fine, but I can't figure out how it would reattach. The first watch I fixed was an AS 1187, the hairspring nub(what is this block called?) just slotted in and tightened, but I don't see how the mechanism would work here. Final image is of the underside of the balance cock.

6. Last question - I have an ultrasonic cleaner, tons of 99% IPA and warm soapy water. My understanding on a watch this old was not to put the hairspring or pallet fork in IPA as it could dissolve the shellac on the jewels. I don't yet have access to OneDip yet, are there safe alternatives to use? I'm in Canada, if that matters. I've read a lot of threads with folks saying they use lighter fluid, is that actually safe?

So far, this watch is getting the following replaced:
Mainspring (old - blue steel with a decent amount of corrosion present)
Barrel arbor (hook is gone)
Hack (broken)
Escape wheel (broken pinion)
Click spring (was entirely missing when the watch arrived)
Crystal (the original one is comically yellow and spiderwebbed with cracks)

It's been a fun journey so far, I'm really enjoying the slow, intentional work and care needed to do this properly.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you can share. 

Can you turn the cock over,looks like the stud fits into that cut out

[VanDan]

Thanks @Bonefixer and @Neverenoughwatches! It does indeed appear that the stud wedges into that angle on the balance cock.

 

And agreed, this watch was absolutely filthy. It didn't come with a case back which contributed to the issue immensely and I think it was in a drawer for ages. Buuuut it was cheap (initially at least) and I hope I can bring it back to life again.

Gonna try cleaning it up tonight and will report back.

 

[nevenbekriev]

Yes Breguet overcoil, and A is OK, the damage is from B to the end. It should look lile this.

The studd is fixed by the screw head into  the cut.

Edited May 6, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

57 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Yes Breguet overcoil, and A is OK, the damage is from B to the end. It should look lile this.

The studd is fixed by the screw head into  the cut.

Lots of rust on that hairspring Nev, would you even try to clean it up ?

[VanDan]

Given the headache and cost in trying to source another, I will give it a shot to get it cleaned up and straightened, but if it doesn't work, I may well have to bite the bullet on a replacement, if I can find one. I think I saw OttoFrei had them for $110 CAD but the shipping was half that again. FWIW, I don't think that's rust on the hairspring, it seems to be some kind of thick substance, maybe oil that ran into dust while it was stashed in a drawer without a case back for years? In any case, it seems to move around when touched, which I wouldn't think rust would be doing. 

Thanks for the diagram @nevenbekriev, that's good context on how it should look. 

Aside from the fact that my lines are crooked because I drew them on a trackpad, am I to understand that the general path should look like the line in red with the first rising point around point A and the second one that levels it out at point B?

Thanks again for any guidance folks can share!

 

[nevenbekriev]

Looks like it is only dirt. If rust, then this means the strenght of the spring is reduced in places with rust, so the spring is damaged and useless. Only light surface rust, which is rather residual from other places activity of rust can be cleaned, and no chemicals that can etch the metals of the spring aloy should be used

23 hours ago, VanDan said:

Crystal (the original one is comically yellow and spiderwebbed with cracks)

 

Be aware that this usually happens when the dial/hands have radium lume!

One of the pivot looks little bent. Not that much to prevent the movement from working, but may be amplitude will be a little bit smaller when this pivot down, resing on the cap stone. Bent pivots always means the balance is out of poise, but it depends on the severity of the bent. Yes it can be straightened, but at this point I will advice to leave it as is and check how the movement performs.

[VanDan]

Well, I'll need to wait for a replacement hairspring. I completely butchered attempting to fix it. Dropping it doesn't help.

I did learn that I need more than just a monocle for magnification and that entry level tweezers are not acceptable for this level of repair. 

Still, I guess it's important to find your limits early, and I did learn about Breguet coils, so thanks everyone for chiming in!

@nevenbekriev thanks for the advice on radium, I just flashed a UV light on them and they glowed for about a second and that's it. I thought radium glowed for like 1600 years? Am I way off base there?

Next updates once I get the replacement spring and get it back on the balance. 

[nevenbekriev]

On 5/7/2024 at 4:36 AM, VanDan said:

Aside from the fact that my lines are crooked because I drew them on a trackpad, am I to understand that the general path should look like the line in red with the first rising point around point A and the second one that levels it out at point B?

Yes, the general pat is this.

On my diagram the points where the springs rises and levels are marked with red circles. This is only to show on all pictures (the ones that doesn't show this points as they are seen only from aside, not from above) where this points are. On You pictures, the pont where the spring rises is not marked. The point where it levels is marked with A. The point B is where the change in radius should start, but there is sharp bend there which should not be that sharp.

[nickelsilver]

The overcoil can have a number of forms depending on where the stud is situated in relation to the spring. Here's a pic of the Phillips terminal curves.

 

 

 

The pdf has all the curves in different scales, you can actually print it out and lay the spring over the one you determine you need to help in forming the coil. It's in 4 languages too!

PhillipsTerminalCurves.pdf

Edited May 8, 2024 by nickelsilver

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, there are a lot of shapes and all of them are used in different cases. The one in Waltham A11 is one of the most spreaded and is what I have shown in the beginning. Of course, the radius of the final curve will depend on the distance between the hole in the stone and the regulator pins on the cock