Hairsrping alignment

[Paul1991]

Hi everyone, i'm currently having a problem in algnment of the 7s26a hairpsring, it causing +13 rate when it comes to crown down possition. What should i do, what would be the technique for having it good. Hope to know any idea of how to do it right. Thanks. 

[Waggy]

The hairspring looks to be in good condition from the photographs, it is natural that the balance will perform slightly differently in different orientations. Assuming there is no damage, the difference may be caused by the balance moving relative to the jewels, not the hairspring itself. So too much space between the jewels (endshake) and the difference will be greater, if one jewel is oiled and the other not, then again a lower amplitude in one position than the other....and so on. If the difference is reasonable (like your 13 seconds) the the best thing to do is to make one position slightly fast (+7 seconds, and the other position slow -7 seconds) then this averaging of the error will make for a more accurate watch in use. If the difference was much greater eg 100 seconds, then you would need to troubleshoot the problem.

Additionally, you need to let the watch run-in for 24-48 hours after a service to allow the new oils to work their way in to all the jewels and pivots etc before you make a 'real' timegrapher test, otherwise you can get strange results. For example the oil in the top shock setting may be evenly spread, but not (yet) in the bottom setting = high difference.... after 24 hours this oil will probably have sorted itself out and the difference may be much better.

[mikepilk]

I agree with @Waggy, no need to adjust.

That looks very good to me. The factory specs for 7S26 are something like -35 to +45s/day, but they are usually better.

The amplitude is good. When wearing, the most important positions are dial up, crown down and crown left. You need to regulate so that these positions average out to about zero. Crown down is showing +14, so you may have to set dial up to slightly minus s/day. The absolute values of +/-s/day don't really matter, as long as they aren't too far out.

The only way to get good accuracy is to wear it for a couple of days, recording the errors, and gradually tweaking.

[Knebo]

I also agree with @mikepilk and @Waggy. Your readings look good. The amplitude drop between the horizontal postion and the vertical position is nice and low (only 18° difference). 

The delta of 17 sec (-3 to +14) between those positions is absolutely ok. If you really wanted to improve on this, I think you'd have to look into the poising of the balance wheel (not the spring, which looks perfect). But that's a total overkill for this kind of movement.

Leave it be.

[Paul1991]

On 5/14/2024 at 3:51 PM, Waggy said:

The hairspring looks to be in good condition from the photographs, it is natural that the balance will perform slightly differently in different orientations. Assuming there is no damage, the difference may be caused by the balance moving relative to the jewels, not the hairspring itself. So too much space between the jewels (endshake) and the difference will be greater, if one jewel is oiled and the other not, then again a lower amplitude in one position than the other....and so on. If the difference is reasonable (like your 13 seconds) the the best thing to do is to make one position slightly fast (+7 seconds, and the other position slow -7 seconds) then this averaging of the error will make for a more accurate watch in use. If the difference was much greater eg 100 seconds, then you would need to troubleshoot the problem.

Additionally, you need to let the watch run-in for 24-48 hours after a service to allow the new oils to work their way in to all the jewels and pivots etc before you make a 'real' timegrapher test, otherwise you can get strange results. For example the oil in the top shock setting may be evenly spread, but not (yet) in the bottom setting = high difference.... after 24 hours this oil will probably have sorted itself out and the difference may be much better.

Thank you and i appreciate that, it looks very different 

 

On 5/14/2024 at 3:51 PM, Waggy said:

The hairspring looks to be in good condition from the photographs, it is natural that the balance will perform slightly differently in different orientations. Assuming there is no damage, the difference may be caused by the balance moving relative to the jewels, not the hairspring itself. So too much space between the jewels (endshake) and the difference will be greater, if one jewel is oiled and the other not, then again a lower amplitude in one position than the other....and so on. If the difference is reasonable (like your 13 seconds) the the best thing to do is to make one position slightly fast (+7 seconds, and the other position slow -7 seconds) then this averaging of the error will make for a more accurate watch in use. If the difference was much greater eg 100 seconds, then you would need to troubleshoot the problem.

Additionally, you need to let the watch run-in for 24-48 hours after a service to allow the new oils to work their way in to all the jewels and pivots etc before you make a 'real' timegrapher test, otherwise you can get strange results. For example the oil in the top shock setting may be evenly spread, but not (yet) in the bottom setting = high difference.... after 24 hours this oil will probably have sorted itself out and the difference may be much better.

Thank you sir but i think there is a little problem according to that reading it's because it is far different to the other move that i serviced, i will atouched the photo. They are different movements but this one is 7s26b movement and they are also different in shape when it comes to the ballance assmebly. Thanks also for the concerned i appreciate that. 

[ScrewDropper]

A point with regulation, when you see a large time variance between horizontal and vertical positions is that this is often due to the spacing of the regulator pins, not the hairspring itself (although a kinked or misshapen terminal curve can cause regulator issues). 

[Jon]

If the coils of the hairspring are equidistance from each other and the end-curve is perfectly formed, so the regulator pins (curbpin and boot) don't push or pull the hairspring regardless of where the index is at the extreme of '+' or '-' and the balance is poised (consistent + or - timing in vertical positions) then it may be the gap between the regulator pins.

These slides may help explain which way to open or close them. This is why an EtaChron system works so well, as you can set where you want the hairspring to exactly be and set perfectly distanced regulator pins every time!

 

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

If the coils of the hairspring are equidistance from each other and the end-curve is perfectly formed, so the regulator pins (curbpin and boot) don't push or pull the hairspring regardless of where the index is at the extreme of '+' or '-' and the balance is poised (consistent + or - timing in vertical positions) then it may be the gap between the regulator pins.

These slides may help explain which way to open or close them. This is why an EtaChron system works so well, as you can set where you want the hairspring to exactly be and set perfectly distanced regulator pins every time!

 

Wow, this is fantastic information! Never seen this in such clarity. 

Thanks! 

[JohnR725]

On 5/13/2024 at 11:51 PM, Paul1991 said:

7s26a hairpsring

On 5/15/2024 at 7:03 PM, Paul1991 said:

7s26b

On 5/15/2024 at 7:03 PM, Paul1991 said:

Thank you sir but i think there is a little problem according to that reading it's because it is far different to the other move that i serviced, i will atouched the photo. They are different movements but this one is 7s26b movement and they are also different in shape when it comes to the ballance assmebly. Thanks also for the concerned i appreciate that. 

by the way this is very confusing to me? You have a 7s26a and you're comparing it to a 7s26b which is confusing to me because they're not the same? Watch companies are rather amusing when it comes the part numbers seemingly watches with similar  numbers as you're implying should be exactly identical but in this case they are very very dramatically different

for instance the 7s26a balance part number is 0310 020

the 7s26b has a different part number 0310 197 as the part numbers are entirely different there must be a reason

1 hour ago, Jon said:

f the coils of the hairspring are equidistance from each other and the end-curve is perfectly formed, so the regulator pins (curbpin and boot) don't push or pull the hairspring regardless of where the index is at the extreme of '+' or '-' and the balance is poised (consistent + or - timing in vertical positions) then it may be the gap between the regulator pins.

These slides may help explain which way to open or close them. This is why an EtaChron system works so well, as you can set where you want the hairspring to exactly be and set perfectly distanced regulator pins every time!

it noticed that I made two terms in the quote above in bold regulator pins are versus the etachron  system. In addition to changing the regulation part more than likely they change the hairspring. So this would typically main you wouldn't build a swap balance completes from one type to the other because they will be entirely different.

this is where looking at the technical guide might yield some amusing information. you'll note in the 7s26b  service guide it explains what the difference is. It makes a reference to the balance staff which is totally inconsequential for this discussion. But the really big difference is the A  version has conventional regulator pins and the B  has is the Etachron  system. In @Jon excellent images up above he didn't explain something?

On 5/15/2024 at 7:03 PM, Paul1991 said:

also different in shape when it comes to the ballance assmebly

if you look carefully at the images below you'll notice that the outer terminal curve is different  as a guest to accommodate the etachron  system it looks like the terminal curve is farther out. So yes exactly as the parts list indicates the balance completes will look different because they are different. Because they are different there are not interchangeable.

so basically because the letter changes at the end in this particular case we end up with two separate balance completes as proven by the parts numbers. Balance completes that are entirely different to accommodate the regulation system conceivably with entirely different characteristics of timing as they are entirely different. So your observation of the balances are different shape is correct they are different.