Rolex cal. 3135 issues

[VWatchie]

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

make sure you know how to deal with the reversing wheels (Epilame..)

As I understand it, but please let me know if I'm wrong, the two reversing wheels should be treated with Fixodrop and then only the side of the arbor should be oiled. Correct?

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

The escape wheel jewel settings are easier to oil from below.

Great tip! I'll use my automatic oiler for this or even better my Horotec oil pusher.

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

In the date mechanism, be careful that the cam yoke, it's jewel and spring don't join the Rolex space programme.

Yes, it sounds dramatic and Mark warns about it in his series of videos where he does a complete service of the 3135 calibre. By the way, have you looked through Mark's videos for this calibre? Do you have any comments or additions, or can I follow the series with a clear conscience? When he removes these parts, he starts with the jewel. Shouldn't it be easier or safer to first remove the cam yoke that the jewel sits on, then remove the jewel from the cam yoke, and finally remove the spring?

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

Also be careful not to break the balance stop/hack spring.

I'll be honest, I don't really understand the risk. Can you elaborate? Maybe this part is very thin and fragile?

Edited Wednesday at 07:27 PM by VWatchie

[Knebo]

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

make sure you know how to deal with the reversing wheels (Epilame..)

As I understand it, but please let me know if I'm wrong, the two reversing wheels should be treated with Fixodrop and then only the side of the arbor should be oiled. Correct?

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

Yes, Fixodrop and then only a tiny amount of HP130p on the arbor as shown below. 

This is my one main concern about Mark's video (and I can't believe I'm saying this in HIS forum  he also applies a bit of oil on the clicks which os clearly not what Rolex suggests. While he probably knows what he's doing and is maybe so precise that the oil will forever stay on the vertical surface of the click (and never travel between the steel wheel and the purple surface)... but it's certainly not necessary and a risk I'd avoid. 

 

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

In the date mechanism, be careful that the cam yoke, it's jewel and spring don't join the Rolex space programme.

Yes, it sounds dramatic and Mark warns about it in his series of videos where he does a complete service of the 3135 calibre. By the way, have you looked through Mark's videos for this calibre? Do you have any comments or additions, or can I follow the series with a clear conscience? When he removes these parts, he starts with the jewel. Shouldn't it be easier or safer to first remove the cam yoke that the jewel sits on, then remove the jewel from the cam yoke, and finally remove the spring?

I think both approaches can work. 

If you do slip and let the spring snap back, it may damage the jewel but the yoke would be ok. Maybe that's why Mark deals with the jewel first. 

Not that tolerances in Rolex movements are very small. Concretely, the yoke maye be difficult to remove because the it's hole is very tight on the post. So it may be good to have thr jewel out of the way already. 

 

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I'll be honest, I don't really understand the risk. Can you elaborate? Maybe this part is very thin and fragile?

Yes, not obvious. 

The hack spring does have a groove on the mainplate. So it's correct positioning relies on two pins/posts. One of which is only there of you have previously already assembled the keyless works (which Mark does afterwards). 

If you don't previously assemble the keyless works (to get the second pin), you need to position the hack spring careful and also watch out not to move it too much in the process of putting the bridge. Otherwise there's a risk of flattening/breaking the tip that is supposed to touch the balance. 

Later, when assembling the keyless works, you also have to be careful that the pin from the setting setting lever goes into the hole of the hack spring and does damage it. 

In sum, I feel that it may be better to assemble the keyless works first! Avoids both risks in this regard...  I did it that way and it didn't cause my any other problems. 

But Mark and Rolex manual suggest doing the train side first...

 

These pictures from the first two seconds of Mark's second video in the series. 

You see, only one post for positioning of the hack. But he knows what he's doing, of course. And the tip of the hack spring (arrow on last pic) doesn't get squeezed between mainplate and bridge. 

 

And from my own pictures:

- without keyless works:

- with keyless works:

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:12 AM by Knebo
Corrected oil for reversing wheel from 9010 to HP1300

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

clicks which os clearly not what Rolex suggests

My understanding of why there is no oil on the clicks is because they have to move with absolutely zero friction. The danger of oil is it can have a dampening effect and of course it can go bad with time. So basically it's designed to work with no oil at all at least that's my understanding. It's also why they use epilam to keep oil from spreading across the wheel to the clicks.

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

I feel that it may be better to assemble the keyless works first! Avoids both risks in this regard...  I did it that way and it didn't cause my any other problems. 

I always find the order of reassembling a watch quite interesting? Like the silly YouTube videos with the first thing they put in is the pallet fork which is definitely not the first thing you put in. Or keyless versus the gear train? When I was first in school the instructor George commented about putting the keyless together first on the grounds it would give you a stem to hold onto. So personalities found assembling the keyless First is what I would prefer to do.

 

[Knebo]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

silly YouTube videos with the first thing they put in is the pallet fork

Hahaha, recipe for disaster. 

 

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

When I was first in school the instructor George commented about putting the keyless together first on the grounds it would give you a stem to hold onto. So personalities found assembling the keyless First is what I would prefer to do.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one! 

[Jon]

The left handed screw on the date driving wheel has a special screwdriver head to fit, so beware. it can be undone with a screwdriver, but careful not to slip!

The date driving wheel needs to have pressure of the jewel that is on the arm pushed against the cam under the driving wheel taken off.

When the left handed screw is removed, take the tension off the spring shown with a blue arrow, then remove the driving wheel and release the tension.

When it comes to service manual for any watch movements, if you know why you use a lubricant in a certain situation, then I wouldn't pay too much attention to them. I certainly don't as I don't believe in most assembly order, or what lubrication.

Reversing wheels don't get lubricated with 9010, maybe several decades ago, they are lubricated with  HP1300, as all modern automatic watches are. I know I'm opening a can of worms here! Old service manuals will say to use 9010, but we don't do it like that anymore.

I always start with the gear train or barrel, never the keyless work, as the clutch and winding pinion have to be held in mid air to pass the winding stem through them.

Once the calendar plate is removed, you'll see the jewel hard against the calendar driving wheel post. 

This pic doesn't have the jewel in situ, but I have highlighted where the jewel will be. Take a little tension off the spring and rodico the jewel off.

Keep that spring in situ when cleaning. It is might break if you remove and replace it.

When it comes to epilame on a modern Rolex, these are the parts to do in the picture. Don't oil any teeth on the reversing wheels. The risk of oil migrating between the teeth and the red disk is big and will jam the reversing wheels eventually, so nothing is used, except HP 1300 on the arbors

Edited Thursday at 11:03 AM by Jon

[Knebo]

15 minutes ago, Jon said:

Reversing wheels don't get lubricated with 9010, maybe several decades ago, they are lubricated with  HP1300

True! I corrected that in my post. 

 

16 minutes ago, Jon said:

always start with the gear train or barrel, never the keyless work, as the clutch and winding pinion have to be held in mid air to pass the winding stem through them.

Yes, that's the downside. 

My preferred way for watches in general is barrel bridge, keyless works, train. In the case of the 3135, the barrel bridge is not below the winding stem. So it doesn't help in holding clutch/winding pinion. 

20 minutes ago, Jon said:

 

Edited 7 minutes ago by Jon

The pivots of the pallet fork? Or do they mention cleaning off the epilame afterwards (also escape wheel pivots)? 

The Rolex manual that I managed to find only refers to the pallet jewels to be treated. 

 

[JohnR725]

20 minutes ago, Jon said:

Reversing wheels don't get lubricated with 9010, maybe several decades ago, they are lubricated with  HP1300, as all modern automatic watches are. I know I'm opening a can of worms here! Old service manuals will say to use 9010, but we don't do it like that anymore.

Yes the endless amusement over lubrication choices. Having more Omega documents and in the late 50s for the keyless Omega recommended 9010. Later they moved to 9020 and now like Swatch group its HP 1300. I would like to think once they started servicing their own watches they may have discovered how stupid they were with early lubrication choices. Although personally I still don't like HP oil for a lot of things where I think grease would be more suitable.

Think about 9010 I went back the Rolex service mail and at least my manual doesn't actually say that the says things like this

That does not look like the definition of 9010 so it's definitely something heavier.

Thinking about heavier lubrication I'm attaching a PDF they are recommending HP 1000's but there isn't really a lot a different Between 1000 And 1300 so I'd use whatever you have and definitely use epilam to keep it from spreading all over the place.

39 minutes ago, Jon said:

I always start with the gear train or barrel, never the keyless work, as the clutch and winding pinion have to be held in mid air to pass the winding stem through them.

Yes another endless debate subject. Plus occasionally it depends upon a specific watch where whatever method you normally do may not actually work in that particular case. Or my favorite some American pocket watches stuff on both sides of the main plate react with each other so the order assembly is critical usually figuring out after you've partially assembled the watch that you not doing it in the correct order.

 

 

Rolex oil chart 3135.pdf

[Jon]

40 minutes ago, Knebo said:

True! I corrected that in my post. 

Although, most service manuals from 25 years or more back will say use 9010. Old service manuals for Felsa 690 use 9010 in the auto works and as @JohnR725has said the progression from 9010 to 9020 and then HP 1300 showed some bad lubrication decisions in the early days.

The Rolex service manual pic was from an up to date service manual, so what you see is epilamed. Personally, I dip the pallet jewels in so the pivots don't get any epilame, but I don't worry about the escape wheel pivots. I know it's fine, by opening up automatic watches I serviced five years ago and not seeing any brown dust around the escape wheel pivots or any problems in their timing, amplitude or general running.

[Knebo]

53 minutes ago, Jon said:

Personally, I dip the pallet jewels in so the pivots don't get any epilame

I'll also continue doing that out of precaution and habit...

 

53 minutes ago, Jon said:

but I don't worry about the escape wheel pivots. I know it's fine, by opening up automatic watches I serviced five years ago and not seeing any brown dust around the escape wheel pivots or any problems in their timing, amplitude or general running.

...but this is definitely good to know!

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, Knebo said:

This is my one main concern about Mark's video (and I can't believe I'm saying this in HIS forum  he also applies a bit of oil on the clicks which is clearly not what Rolex suggests.

I don't think you have to worry one bit about Mark. As you say, I'm sure he knows what he is doing and why. Anyway, since he doesn't disclose the reason for oiling the clicks I will follow Rolex's recommendation. Speaking of Mark's YouTube channel I must say it's still one of the best, if not the best. I'd love to see more videos from him.

5 hours ago, Knebo said:

Not that tolerances in Rolex movements are very small. Concretely, the yoke maye be difficult to remove because the it's hole is very tight on the post. So it may be good to have thr jewel out of the way already. 

From that point of view it seems safer. Actually, my question was unnecessary because you make this kind of decision when you do the work. Mark says the spring is strong and until I feel it and how tightly the cam yoke hole closes around the post on the main plate, I can't say which strategy I will consider the safest. I also saw Jon talk about this so I will likely comment more.

A small reflection. Although I'm itching to get started, it's great fun to learn the parts of the movement, their name, and how they interact. It also reduces the risk of taking chances out of impatience during work if you suddenly feel unsure about something. Strangely enough, I don't feel very nervous but more excited. I suppose it's the result of soon eight years of tinkering with watches and movements. I still remember how it took me an hour to reinstall my first mainspring arbor and how happily exhausted I felt when I finally managed to get it in place.

6 hours ago, Knebo said:

In sum, I feel that it may be better to assemble the keyless works first! Avoids both risks in this regard...  I did it that way and it didn't cause my any other problems. 

But Mark and Rolex manual suggest doing the train side first...

Yes, it seems trickier to get the setting lever in if we first mount the spring for the balance stop and winding bridge. As Mark states in the video, it's tricky to line up the setting lever as it needs to fit perfectly in three spots. That is, the setting lever must align with the "yoke for the setting wheel", the "groove in the stem", and the "hole in the spring for the balance stop".

On most ETA movements I prefer to mount the barrel bridge first as it supports the winding and sliding pinions before the stem is inserted. Oddly enough, ETA always recommends starting with the keyless works, but obviously not Rolex. Anyway, whatever method is used, as long as you are focused, come well-prepared, and understand the function of the parts and their interaction, there should be little or no risk of damage.

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It's also why they use epilam to keep oil from spreading across the wheel to the clicks.

It feels like the oil has a very long way to go to reach the clicks, but there is no doubt that everyone agrees on how the reversers should be treated. Here are a couple of posts from @nickelsilver that further confirm how it should be done:

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/11035-lubricants-to-use-with-rolex-3135/#comment-99375

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/11035-lubricants-to-use-with-rolex-3135/#comment-121949

21 hours ago, Jon said:

The left handed screw on the date driving wheel has a special screwdriver head to fit, so beware. it can be undone with a screwdriver, but careful not to slip!

This is a valuable tip, although I believe this is for a different Rolex calibre (not the 3135). Can you recall which one?

21 hours ago, Jon said:

This pic doesn't have the jewel in situ, but I have highlighted where the jewel will be. Take a little tension off the spring and rodico the jewel off.

Yes, that must be the safest way to do it! Mark uses a pair of tweezers to remove the jewel and you can see how difficult it is as the tolerance between the jewel hole and the post for the jewel on the yoke for the cam is minimal.

21 hours ago, Jon said:

Keep that spring in situ when cleaning. It is might break if you remove and replace it.

Do you keep the cam yoke (being pressed by the spring) in situ too?

21 hours ago, Jon said:

I always start with the gear train or barrel, never the keyless work, as the clutch and winding pinion have to be held in mid air to pass the winding stem through them.

I agree, in general, we can choose to do it either way but having the underside of the barrel bridge support the winding pinion and the sliding pinion while inserting the stem makes it quite a bit easier, although obviously not in the case of the Rolex 3135 calibre as pointed out by Knebo.

23 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Having more Omega documents and in the late 50s for the keyless Omega recommended 9010. Later they moved to 9020 and now like Swatch group its HP 1300.

9010 for the keyless works!? By Omega!? Well, I must say, there's a lot to hear before your ears fall off!  I guess HP 1300 could be OK if the keyless parts have been epilame treated, but why even go there when we have grease!? Lots of rubbing metal parts under high pressure.

23 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

there isn't really a lot a different Between 1000 And 1300 so I'd use whatever you have and definitely use epilam to keep it from spreading all over the place.

Good to know, especially as I don't have any 1000, and I will of course treat all parts recommended by Rolex with epilame.

23 hours ago, Jon said:

Personally, I dip the pallet jewels in so the pivots don't get any epilame, but I don't worry about the escape wheel pivots. I know it's fine, by opening up automatic watches I serviced five years ago and not seeing any brown dust around the escape wheel pivots or any problems in their timing, amplitude or general running.

That's also good to know as I follow the same practice.

Finally, thanks for all the input guys! It is more appreciated than I think you realise! 

[Jon]

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

This is a valuable tip, although I believe this is for a different Rolex calibre (not the 3135). Can you recall which one?

3035

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Do you keep the cam yoke (being pressed by the spring) in situ too?

Yes, keep it in situ. For some reason I thought you were working on a 3035.

Here's a pic of a 3135 spring in situ. Push the spring out of the way which allows the date driving wheel to be removed and the tension taken off the side of the arm with the jewel on the end.

You can see the hole in the stop lever which the setting lever goes into. Dead easy to line up!

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I agree, in general, we can choose to do it either way but having the underside of the barrel bridge support the winding pinion and the sliding pinion while inserting the stem makes it quite a bit easier, although obviously not in the case of the Rolex 3135 calibre as pointed out by Knebo.

There is still the crown wheel to support the winding pinion and clutch in the 3135 so it isn't in mid air

Edited 22 hours ago by Jon

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, Jon said:

You can see the hole in the stop lever which the setting lever goes into. Dead easy to line up!

So no problem as long as you understand what needs to be done. Very good! 

I started the disassembly yesterday. With a few exceptions the screws looked untouched so maybe the watch has never been serviced. I have the principle of treating all watches regardless of value and brand in the same way but hand on heart, I took extra time and was extra careful to dress my screwdrivers and tweezers. This level of quality is beyond anything I have experienced except possibly a couple of Omega movements.

In general, it is easier to handle high-quality movements because all the parts fit together so perfectly, especially during assembly. Just screwing the case back on and off feels almost a little sensual. It almost makes you blush and look over your shoulder  The fit is exceptionally precise!

In the long run, maybe sometime in the fall, I plan to create a service walkthrough. Therefore, I take lots of pictures of which I may then use a third. If there is interest in taking a look at the status of the movement, you can click on the link below where I will gradually post the raw material. On Thursday, the family goes on vacation so the continuation first in the second half of August if all goes as planned.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnVrKJ9agkNWkoFMtyD2O4kPIs66Jg?e=oMRKbn

 

[Jon]

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

This level of quality is beyond anything I have experienced except possibly a couple of Omega movements.

You can now see why you part a lot of money for these and where that money goes, especially the exceptional engineering. They practically service themselves and results are truly amazing. Here's a 3035 from this week.

As you can see from the second to last pic, the hairspring was in a right tangled mess. Either someone had tried taking it out and back in again, or the watch had taken quite a hard tumble. I'm guessing the latter.

The last pic is the carnage that someone inflicted on the case trying to get the bezel off! Jeez! That is one deep groove!

Even one of the bridges had the part number scratched into it. Classy!