Rolex cal. 3135 issues

[Jon]

On 8/22/2024 at 10:23 AM, VWatchie said:

but I would like to practice it before I do it for real.

I understand your hesitation in this process, but you are building it up in your head, I believe. I've done the same with new methods that could prove disastrous, but always find the fear is something my head wants to cling to first and tell me it's all going to go wrong, but the foundation of my experience will be the judge of that. 

Anyway, failure is usually your best teacher, so if you break the top because you hit the rivet too hard, then that will be invaluable lesson that cost £25 or so.

From that you will be able to quantify how hard not to hit the next one. I'm sure you will ace it. What you believe, you become!

[Neverenoughwatches]

43 minutes ago, Jon said:

I understand your hesitation in this process, but you are building it up in your head, I believe. I've done the same with new methods that could prove disastrous, but always find the fear is something my head wants to cling to first and tell me it's all going to go wrong, but the foundation of my experience will be the judge of that. 

Anyway, failure is usually your best teacher, so if you break the top because you hit the rivet too hard, then that will be invaluable lesson that cost £25 or so.

From that you will be able to quantify how hard not to hit the next one. I'm sure you will ace it. What you believe, you become!

Fear interferes with the job in hand. I used to be like this sometimes at work years ago if it looked like i was in for a heavy lift,  that fear weakens you. Nowadays i dont even think about it, just roll up my sleeves and power up. My point being and reinforcing what Jon has said, dont let the job get into your head too much, think it through and be confident in the knowing of what you are doing.  When you're confident , fear has no place to roam in your head. You'll do it H, you're a skilled watch guy dont let anxiety tell you any different mate.

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, Jon said:

I'm sure you will ace it. What you believe, you become!

Thanks for the encouragement Jon! I'm mostly concerned about hitting so hard that the rotor cracks as illustrated earlier in the thread. I don't mind breaking the axle. I can handle that but the rotor would feel heavy. Come to think of it, I've had worse challenges and succeeded well with them in the end despite having strong initial doubts. There is a lot in what you say!

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You'll do it H, you're a skilled watch guy dont let anxiety tell you any different mate.

Thanks again for the encouragement, my friends! 

[VWatchie]

A small update for those who are interested.

Last Friday I finished the disassembly and for those of you who are interested, I have added new pictures to the link I published in a previous post (please sort by name in ascending order). It was over 300 pictures. In the long run, I plan to create a service walkthrough and then I will have plenty of pictures to choose from.

I was a bit unsure whether I should dismantle this cannon pinion-like part on the "Cover mechanism" because Rolex explicitly writes "Do not dismantle". But, since the whole movement is covered with metal debris, I chose to do it anyway. However, I had some headaches because it did not work with my trusted cannon pinion remover nor with some of my presto tools which were all too big.

 

I tried to pull the tube off by clamping it in my staking set and pushing the tube up with brass tweezers, but that only resulted in the tip of the brass tweezers breaking off (easily dressed) but better than damaging the tube. After looking through a bunch of videos I finally found a video where @Markshows how to do it. Many thanks!

The parts are now soaking in a degreaser (Horsolov) and I will brush them all off before it is time for the cleaning machine. Getting everything perfectly clean will be a challenge considering the service neglect and damage made by the loose rotor.

[VWatchie]

Here is a small update and a few pictures for those who may be interested.

Finally, the cleaning is done!  It's been a hard and time-consuming job, but a crucial one, as even the smallest residue of metal particles loosened from the rotor could wreak havoc.

The next step will be to inspect all parts under my stereo microscope carefully. I already know that one or two pivots need burnishing. Overall, however, it seems that the damage is limited (knock on wood). I'm guessing this is because the watch probably stopped being used when the oscillating weight stopped working. We should all go back to organic watch oils so that no movement is in danger of being destroyed and users are forced to overhaul their precious timepieces! 

As far as riveting the rotor axle is concerned, I no longer have any qualms (thanks for all the encouragement!), but I will still wait until it is time to assemble the automatic framework. That is until I actually have to do it. Or, it could be that I'll do it when I feel inclined to. 

[Jon]

On 8/25/2024 at 6:43 PM, VWatchie said:

I was a bit unsure whether I should dismantle this cannon pinion-like part on the "Cover mechanism" because Rolex explicitly writes "Do not dismantle". But, since the whole movement is covered with metal debris, I chose to do it anyway.

I always take off the cannon pinion from this plate and grease before reassembling, because if you don't, when you try to set the date in quickset at the same time as the hands being near 12 midnight, this cannon pinion won't slip which is the safety feature of this movement.

I came across one the other day that had been spot welded together, which takes away the ability for that safety slip.

I don't take any notice of some of the crap they put in service manuals, especially telling you what you should and should and shouldn't replace, clean or disassemble. Saying this part shouldn't be parted and greased is madness, for the reason have stated

[nevenbekriev]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:17 PM, Jon said:

I've got a rotor from a 2135 that has a hole that has been completely deform by hitting the axle when it wasn't centred, so I'm going to completely bore out the hole and turn and fit a custom made stepped bush to accommodate the new axle snuggly. well, that's the plan. Not sure if it will work, but it's worth a go and I haven't seen anyone else try it. A replacement rotor is about £150

Just sow it. Did You solve the problem? I would advice not fitting bush there, but making bigger size custom axle after truing the hole. Another option is laser welding to add material where it is missing and then turning on lathe to repair the hole.

[Jon]

21 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

I would advice not fitting bush there, but making bigger size custom axle after truing the hole

No, I haven't had as go at it yet, but I like your idea of making a custom axle to fit the hole once I open it up.

I know a bush would be a bit of a dodgy proposition, but I'll give it a go first and then try your idea. Cheers @nevenbekriev

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, Jon said:

I know a bush would be a bit of a dodgy proposition

I'm curious to know why. I'm not questioning it. I'm clueless.

[Neverenoughwatches]

46 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I'm curious to know why. I'm not questioning it. I'm clueless.

My guess is the excessive uneven weight distribution of the rotor is constantly shifting ( unlike a bearing for a pivot or an arbor ) The bush will be under varying side loads when the rotor turns. 

Can you tell i dont like automatics . Bumpers yes , rotors no.

I love the feel of the bump when you hold the watch in your hand and gently rock it back and forth..........haha that sounded really sexual

[Jon]

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

My guess is the excessive uneven weight distribution of the rotor is constantly shifting ( unlike a bearing for a pivot or an arbor ) The bush will be under varying side loads when the rotor turns. 

Spot on! The hole in the rotor is stepped and very thin, so the bush would have very little material of the rotor to grip against, add that problem to the extreme force put upon that area and there's a recipe for a disaster right there. It's worth a punt, even if it's just to rule it out in the future.

I've fitted two bushes in an upper auto bridge on a Rolex 645 that was not much thicker, but as mentioned, there are difference in forces with a spinning arbor. You can see by the photo someone had previously bodged a couple in and filed not just the bush but a large proportion of the bridge.... Genius!

Edited September 3, 2024 by Jon

[RichardHarris123]

I wonder why rotors aren't made with multiple "blades", like a propeller to even out the forces. 

[AndyGSi]

What's the thickness of the rotor material?

The reason I ask is that I've been looking at Fibre Lasers and just trying to
decide what other applications it could be used for as to what power to get.

[JohnR725]

29 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

The reason I ask is that I've been looking at Fibre Lasers and just trying to
decide what other applications it could be used for as to what power to get

One really wonderful use of a fiber laser is putting holes in mainsprings. Like if you need a square hole of fiber laser has no problem. Or one time I needed a round washer with a square hole and I asked nicely at work and one was made for me.

Out of curiosity which fiber lasers are you looking at?

[AndyGSi]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Out of curiosity which fiber lasers are you looking at?

A friend has the 20W version of this but I'm thinking about the 50W as being easier to cut with.

https://monportlaser.com/collections/fiber-laser-engraver?srsltid=AfmBOorc2FoLjLS8_rAXsoEk3I-ZWNdSviIICuN39w8zGj1Su2r4Rfve

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I wonder why rotors aren't made with multiple "blades", like a propeller to even out the forces. 

I know nothing about the physics of propellers but would a propeller-like rotor spin at all?

[tomh207]

9 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

A friend has the 20W version of this but I'm thinking about the 50W as being easier to cut with.

https://monportlaser.com/collections/fiber-laser-engraver?srsltid=AfmBOorc2FoLjLS8_rAXsoEk3I-ZWNdSviIICuN39w8zGj1Su2r4Rfve

50w should be good for watch work Andy. It will cut a lot of the thin sheet material we would want to do for watchmaking, you do have to think about though the farther away from the centre of the galvo head the more of an angle the cut will be also a sheet material vice is required to minimise warping of the material from heat. Lots of folk in the modding community use 50w to make and engrave dials. These often come with a 110 and 220 mm lenses, I would look at a 70mm too for the small scales you would want to work to and would give finer detail. One thought I have had is it would be an interesting experiment to try rust removal using a fibre laser at low power and high frequency. Have a look at the YouTube channel laser everything and their website, it’s not watch related but loads of laser resources and information.

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

26 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Have a look at the YouTube channel laser everything and their website, it’s not watch related but loads of laser resources and information.

I've watched a few of his videos after getting a Co2 Laser last year.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, Jon said:

Spot on! The hole in the rotor is stepped and very thin, so the bush would have very little material of the rotor to grip against, add that problem to the extreme force put upon that area and there's a recipe for a disaster right there. It's worth a punt, even if it's just to rule it out in the future.

I've fitted two bushes in an upper auto bridge on a Rolex 645 that was not much thicker, but as mentioned, there are difference in forces with a spinning arbor. You can see by the photo someone had previously bodged a couple in and filed not just the bush but a large proportion of the bridge.... Genius!

That patch up looks as though it would have more stability than a bush , its frictioned to a lot more material .

12 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I wonder why rotors aren't made with multiple "blades", like a propeller to even out the forces. 

Its the uneven weight that gives them the ability to turn with movement ofvtge watch. That's why i like the bumper automatics. I dont know enough to know of there cons yet but the Nivada one i picked up the other day is 80 years old and has no wear in the auto works, 

[VWatchie]

Whilst searching for replacement oils for Rolex lubricants I stumbled across a post by @JohnR725 where he linked to a copy of the AWCI publication that I had not seen before (the August 2012 issue). An interesting article describes Rolex lubricants by comparing their properties with those of Moebius equivalent lubricants. If you don't want to read the article, here is what I came up with (which I take no responsibility for):

Rolex MR4    -> Moebius 9501 or Moebius 9504
Rolex LR2    -> Moebius 9415
Rolex TEPA    -> Klüber P125 or Moebius Glissalube A 8213 (Brass barrel)

I haven't found an alternative for Moebius 9103 (HP-1000) recommended by Rolex calibre 3135. Perhaps HP-1300 would do, or what do you think?

[JohnR725]

On 9/3/2024 at 2:19 PM, AndyGSi said:

A friend has the 20W version of this but I'm thinking about the 50W as being easier to cut with.

https://monportlaser.com/collections/fiber-laser-engraver?srsltid=AfmBOorc2FoLjLS8_rAXsoEk3I-ZWNdSviIICuN39w8zGj1Su2r4Rfve

Yes with 50 W you can do all sorts a serious engraving and cutting of metal as that's what we have at work. But ours was rather pricey very pricey as it was specifically designed for the jewelry industry. Then safety features missing from yours has a nice metal box with a door that opens and closes electronically and all sorts of safety interlocks. You can look in through special filtered class as yours doesn't have that you would not what I have a reflection of the light in your eyes not good at all. Then if you start doing some serious engraving you going to be of vaporizing metal and whatever your engraving and you really don't want to breathe that either. So I your bargain price you're going to have to figure out some way to add in some safety features.

17 hours ago, VWatchie said:

haven't found an alternative for Moebius 9103 (HP-1000) recommended by Rolex calibre 3135. Perhaps HP-1300 would do, or what do you think?

I'm attaching a spec sheet for the HP oils and I don't really think there's that much difference between the 1000 and the 1300. Yes there is a viscosity different spots I doubt you'd notice the difference.

992_O20737_40 SYNT-HP oil.pdf

[AndyGSi]

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Then if you start doing some serious engraving you going to be of vaporizing metal and whatever your engraving and you really don't want to breathe that either. So I your bargain price you're going to have to figure out some way to add in some safety features.

We build control panels so knocking up an enclosure with ventilation and interlock wouldn't be a problem.

[VWatchie]

28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm attaching a spec sheet for the HP oils and I don't really think there's that much difference between the 1000 and the 1300. Yes there is a viscosity different spots I doubt you'd notice the difference.

Thanks, John! So 1300 has a higher viscosity (thicker) than 1000. What do others with experience of Rolex, like @Jon and @Knebo have to say about 1300 instead of 1000. Is it worth the investment to buy the 1000 or can I settle for the 1300 I already have?

Edited September 5, 2024 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes there is a viscosity different spots I doubt you'd notice the difference.

Should I take that as an endorsement!? 

[Knebo]

On 9/5/2024 at 3:25 PM, VWatchie said:

Should I take that as an endorsement!? 

Hi @VWatchie, 

I did buy HP1000 for the purpose of following the Rolex oiling chat to the T. But frankly, if I were going to make the decision again today, I'd save the money and just use 1300 instead.. and have not worries about it.