Rolex cal. 3135 issues

[Jon]

On 9/3/2024 at 9:12 PM, AndyGSi said:

What's the thickness of the rotor material?

0.3 mm

On 9/4/2024 at 6:04 PM, VWatchie said:

I haven't found an alternative for Moebius 9103 (HP-1000) recommended by Rolex calibre 3135. Perhaps HP-1300 would do, or what do you think?

Mix Moebius HP1300 with HP750 and you've got yourself HP1000! Unless you don't have HP750, but you can mix the different HP greases to a degree.

 

On 9/5/2024 at 11:34 AM, JohnR725 said:

I'm attaching a spec sheet for the HP oils and I don't really think there's that much difference between the 1000 and the 1300. Yes there is a viscosity different spots I doubt you'd notice the difference.

I agree, the application for both is for low speed/high torque arbors, so because the torque is fairly high you aren't going to see much if any difference, which will show itself as an amplitude drop (more in vertical positions).

I'm going to put up a post about lubrication, torque and speed, which hopefully makes sense and will obviously stir up a hornets nest!

 

On 9/5/2024 at 12:02 PM, VWatchie said:

Thanks, John! So 1300 has a higher viscosity (thicker) than 1000. What do others with experience of Rolex, like @Jon and @Knebo have to say about 1300 instead of 1000. Is it worth the investment to buy the 1000 or can I settle for the 1300 I already have?

You are not going to see any real difference between the two greases when used on a high torque arbor; if you started playing about with the viscosity of high speed/low torque arbors such as the 4th, escape and caps then you will see a loss in amplitude, or at least the potential for a drop in amplitude.

 

Edited September 8, 2024 by Jon

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, Jon said:

I agree, the application for both is for low speed/high torque arbors, so because the torque is fairly high you aren't going to see much if any difference, which will show itself as an amplitude drop (more in vertical positions).

I'm going to put up a post about lubrication, torque and speed, which hopefully makes sense and will obviously stir up a hornets nest!

you mean more like a few dozen hornets nests

I do find horological lubrication quite amusing. For instance do the watch companies study the effect of their lubrication choices for the running of their watches long term? So in other words when you look at the tech sheet and they give a recommendation is it really the right recommendation at all? For instance people work in the service center's for various companies that replace a heck of a lot of components which makes you wonder if maybe the lubrication choices are not correct because they don't care they will just replace stuff.

10 hours ago, Jon said:

You are not going to see any real difference between the two greases when used on a high torque arbor; if you started playing about with the viscosity of high speed/low torque arbors such as the 4th, escape and caps then you will see a loss in amplitude, or at least the potential for a drop in amplitude.

I like that potential for a drop in amplitude. We would need to have more than one watch to do a test because just doing a one-off watch doesn't really show too much? For instance I have a basically a brand-new 6497 Swiss watch. Gear train the entire thing HP 1300 balance pivots 9020 and escapement 9415. After servicing of anything it showed too much amplitude and even 24 hours later the aptitudes looks spectacular at almost 300° dial up and down on the other hand the watches sits around here and occasionally I wind it up to see how it still is not entirely a fair test. But it does make me wonder if the Swiss are going with too low of viscosities on their lubrication or oil where Greece should be used for instance.

[VWatchie]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:53 PM, Jon said:

I'm going to put up a post about lubrication, torque and speed, which hopefully makes sense and will obviously stir up a hornets nest!

I can't wait for it! 

On 9/9/2024 at 5:00 AM, JohnR725 said:

For instance do the watch companies study the effect of their lubrication choices for the running of their watches long term?

This is a very interesting, and I believe an underestimated question. It makes me think of the many YouTube channels where they often are very careless with the oiling. Everything looks fine on the timing machine (when they occasionally show it), but what about a week or a month later? Probably a disaster when the oil has spread leaving jewel holes dry and other parts contaminated.

Here is an update for those of you who are interested. Yesterday I tried to oil the anti-shock system but failed miserably. I tried between five and ten times. It was not a pleasant experience. I got it somewhat right but far from acceptable so I gave up. I took a long walk to relieve the pressure and felt defeated, not to say failed 

After a good night's sleep, I looked through my stereomicroscope (40X) in the morning (having a day off) and realised that it was even worse than I had allowed myself to accept yesterday. However, filled with new energy, I removed the cap jewels and chatons, cleaned them in Horosolv and rinsed them in IPA.

What I had failed to do over and over again was to place the chaton perfectly on the cap jewel, causing the oil to end up sticking on the chaton and spread out. The margin between the cap jewel and the chaton is almost non-existent, so if you fail to lower the chaton perfectly, you're screwed. This is in line with the precise fit between the parts of a Rolex watch but in this case, it was no help. It probably works if you have an extremely steady hand and practice long enough but you shouldn't wobble more than a few hundredth of a millimetre.

I then remembered that I had an automatic oiler (Bergeon Automatic Oiler 1A) that I had not used for several years because I learned to oil cap jewels manually with good precision. When you lower the chaton towards a cap jewel on the IncaBloc, the margin between the cap jewel and the chaton is wider so you do not need to be as precise.

By lubricating using the automatic oiler I got a satisfactory result. Maybe it was a tad too much oil but I still feel very satisfied. I don't think there is much risk of the oil spreading if the movement is subjected to severe trauma, which is why you want to avoid too much oil. Too little oil would shorten the service interval. Now that I look at the pictures again I think the amount of oil looks more or less perfect! 

When everything was done, I tested the free oscillation of the balance in all positions (apologies for the background music that I did not think of) and if I may say it myself, it looks wonderful 

Edited September 10, 2024 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

On 5/28/2024 at 4:26 PM, Knebo said:

The escape wheel jewel settings are easier to oil from below.

Thanks for the tip! 

[Knebo]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Thanks for the tip! 

Great! Happy to see that you're back at it. Keep us posted! 

 

 

On 9/9/2024 at 2:11 PM, VWatchie said:

Yesterday I tried to oil the anti-shock system but failed miserably. I tried between five and ten times. It was not a pleasant experience. I got it somewhat right but far from acceptable so I gave up. I took a long walk to relieve the pressure and felt defeated, not to say failed 

After a good night's sleep, I looked through my stereomicroscope (40X) in the morning (having a day off) and realised that it was even worse than I had allowed myself to accept yesterday. However, filled with new energy, I removed the cap jewels and chatons, cleaned them in Horosolv and rinsed them in IPA.

What I had failed to do over and over again was to place the chaton perfectly on the cap jewel, causing the oil to end up sticking on the chaton and spread out. The margin between the cap jewel and the chaton is almost non-existent, so if you fail to lower the chaton perfectly, you're screwed. This is in line with the precise fit between the parts of a Rolex watch but in this case, it was no help. It probably works if you have an extremely steady hand and practice long enough but you shouldn't wobble more than a few hundredth of a millimetre.

Ohhhhhh!!!!

I'm so glad that you are writing this! Not glad that you went through it, but that I share the experience with someone.

Please have a look at my post and drawing here (and ignore the ones that followed): 

 

Edited September 12, 2024 by Knebo

[VWatchie]

On 9/13/2024 at 12:35 AM, Knebo said:

Ohhhhhh!!!!

I'm so glad that you are writing this! Not glad that you went through it, but that I share the experience with someone.

Thanks, Knebo, much appreciated! I thought I was alone in this. Nothing is as comforting as an unfortunate brother so you sharing the same experience made me feel much better as well! 

On 9/13/2024 at 12:35 AM, Knebo said:

Great! Happy to see that you're back at it. Keep us posted! 

I will!

I believe most of the heavy lifting has now been done, in this case getting rid of all the metal paste that had spread from the rim of the oscillating weight to just about everywhere.

Before going into my Elma cleaning machine I carefully brushed every single part in Horosolv  Still, that wasn't enough! In my stereo microscope, I could detect the paste between pinion leaves on small gears and on some pivot shoulders. Before cleaning, all jewels were completely void of oil and many jewel holes were filled with the metal paste, but to my delight, the only pivot that needed a bit of burnishing was the fourth wheel. I guess that shows the phenomenal quality of the alloy used in these Rolex movements. Surprisingly, the balance spring came out of the cleaning machine in perfect condition! 

Now all that remains is the fun part (unless something unexpected happens), which is to finish the reassembly of the movement and the watch. In the long term, I plan to create a service walkthrough and for this purpose, I am taking lots of pictures of which I will probably only use a quarter. For those of you who want to see all of these pictures, you can click on the link below.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnVrKJ9agkNWkokVhogLYtvc6xAqdQ?e=qjlJ4w (Sort by name in ascending order)

Edited September 14, 2024 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

I have added a few more assembly pictures (see the link in the previous post). Rolex seems to like grease and in places where I would normally use oil (HP-1300). Interesting. I have endeavoured to photograph my lubrication this time. Too little, too much, or just right?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Rolex seems to like grease and in places where I would normally use oil (HP-1300). Interesting.

lubrication the endless personal choices and confusions especially with the watch manufacturers. I assume when you're using the HP oil you're using epilam? 

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

lubrication the endless personal choices and confusions especially with the watch manufacturers. I assume when you're using the HP oil you're using epilam? 

Yes, that's right. The grease I'm using for this calibre is Moebius 9504. As I understand it, Rolex uses its own grease named MR4 having similar properties, and as far as I can tell, no Epilam is used on these lubrication points. Not sure if this practice is better or worse than HP-1300 and epilam but it sure is more convenient. Less hassle.

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Yes, that's right. The grease I'm using for this calibre is Moebius 9504. As I understand it, Rolex uses its own grease named MR4 having similar properties, and as far as I can tell, no Epilam is used on these lubrication points. Not sure if this practice is better or worse than HP-1300 and epilam but it sure is more convenient. Less hassle

you're doing exactly what I was taught in both schools grease. Then my favorite current grease is 9504. I really do not understand why some of the watch companies not all of them but some of them insist on using oil which with time is been getting heavier but still oil and epilam makes no sense to me.

[VWatchie]

Another weekend and another chance to work on this beautiful movement which came back to life again today. For anyone interested, I've uploaded more assembly pictures. The calendar and automatic works remain to be assembled. It's getting close 

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnVrKJ9agkNWkokVhogLYtvc6xAqdQ?e=qjlJ4w (sort by name in ascending order)

 

[VWatchie]

Yesterday I got the calendar works in place. 

It was one of the moments I feared because of the mighty spring (part 3135-635) that presses on the cam yoke (part 3135-633). If you lose the spring for the cam yoke while assembling the parts, the consequences will probably be disastrous. For an experienced Rolex repairer, it is probably no more challenging than fitting an arbor to a mainspring, but as always when you do something for the first time, it is a bit of a thrill.

The challenge with the spring is that it is so powerful that it is impossible to hold it back without the movement holder - in my case the Bergeon 4040 - slipping or tipping. In other words, to hold the spring back you must resist or push on the movement holder. Perhaps the dedicated Rolex movement holder is better in this respect!?

My method was to first push the spring away with brass tweezers with my right hand (which is my dominant hand) and then hold the spring with a chisel-like piece of peg wood held between the thumb and forefinger of my left hand while allowing the ring and middle fingers to stabilise the movement holder. Then I could put on the cam yoke with the jewel pre-mounted, the date finger (part 3135-623), put the screw in place and finally gently release the spring back to the cam yoke.

The key to success is to prepare all the parts, lay them out in the right direction, and have the right screwdriver tested beforehand. You don't want to have to stop in the middle of the operation because, for example, you can't get the hole in the date finger to fit the post on the date wheel (part 3135-625), or you need to look for the screw. By the way, this screw is very similar to the screw for the sliding gear yoke (part 3135-217) which, unlike the screw holding the date wheel and date finger parts, is coned on the underside. Strong magnification is required to tell them apart.

It is nice when the date changes in an instant but the construction does not feel very sophisticated even though it is very beautiful to look at. The construction reminds me of how the corresponding complication is implemented in Vostok's calibres 2414 and 2416B which also change the date in an instant. The big difference is Rolex's implementation with a jewel on the cam yoke and that Rolex's powerful spring probably has at least a hundred times longer life than the equivalent of Vostok's movement where one often finds that the spring is severely exhausted or even broken. As much as I like the Vostok movements, I have to admit that the implementation is substandard even if the principle is the same.

A solution for instantaneous date change that I find more sophisticated is the one that can be seen in ETA's calibre 2472.

Anyway, I felt very relieved when everything was in place and it felt like a new and important experience. To be honest, I felt really proud and celebrated with a slice of my wife's delicious apple pie and a cup of coffee! 

[VWatchie]

So, my watch repair friends, the agony is over. The new axle has been riveted! As I lifted the brass hammer to whack the punch, @Jon's words suddenly came to mind: "I'm sure you will ace it. What you believe, you become!"

I haven't yet had a chance to test it, but as far as I can tell it looks good. Thanks for the practical advice, explanations, videos, articles, and encouragement. Invaluable! 

Feeling pretty good about myself tonight!

Edited September 25, 2024 by VWatchie

[RichardHarris123]

Did you have to give it a decent whack as suggested?  

It does look good. 

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Did you have to give it a decent whack as suggested?  

It does look good. 

Yes, indeed! I’m pretty sure I used a bit too much force but was saved by my newly acquired brass hammer. The next time I know I can use a bit less force.

I should have bought two axles. One for practice (without the rotor attached) and one for the actual job. I do recommend getting two axles because it is difficult to assess the force needed when you’ve never had the chance to try it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 9/21/2024 at 8:08 PM, VWatchie said:

Another weekend and another chance to work on this beautiful movement which came back to life again today. For anyone interested, I've uploaded more assembly pictures. The calendar and automatic works remain to be assembled. It's getting close 

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnVrKJ9agkNWkokVhogLYtvc6xAqdQ?e=qjlJ4w (sort by name in ascending order)

 

Looking good H and the classical violin was a nice touch.

On 9/23/2024 at 10:45 AM, VWatchie said:

The challenge with the spring is that it is so powerful that it is impossible to hold it back without the movement holder - in my case the Bergeon 4040 - slipping or tipping. In other words, to hold the spring back you must resist or push on the movement holder. 

Finger dexterity H , something I'm positive you understand with playing the violin. Using each finger for a different purpose, making them stretch and reach around to push and pull as required. I've recently found mounting a movement in an old pocket watch holder i bought a few weeks ago a bit of challenge.  I have 2 of these but this new one has 3 spring loaded arms, I've been practicing holding all 3 out at once so i can release them all together to grip the bottom plates in one go. Was tricky at first until my fingers learned the technique.  Love these holders for pocket watches, there is extra vision you dont get with other holders, for some work you dont need to flip the movement over, just lay the holder face down. The movement is ready to be cleaned so not shown installed but you get the idea. I'd definitely get one of these for any avid pocket watch repairer.

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Finger dexterity H , something I'm positive you understand with playing the violin. Using each finger for a different purpose, making them stretch and reach around to push and pull as required.

R, you're exactly right about that! I practised pulling the spring back (right hand) and holding it (left hand) while also controlling the movement holder (left hand) about 5 to 10 times before I felt confident to do the job. Practice makes perfect, and sometimes practice is a must not to make a mess.

Lovely movement holders!  Thanks for sharing the pictures! 

Edited September 26, 2024 by VWatchie

[Jon]

On 9/25/2024 at 8:39 PM, VWatchie said:

I haven't yet had a chance to test it, but as far as I can tell it looks good. Thanks for the practical advice, explanations, videos, articles, and encouragement. Invaluable! 

Looks damn good to me! I knew you would ace it

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, Jon said:

Looks damn good to me! I knew you would ace it

Thanks, Jon!

I assembled the automatic works this afternoon and although I haven't mounted it and tested it on the watch I expect it to work perfectly. I can't feel any shake spinning the rotor. Of course, there is some shake (or it wouldn't spin), but it appears minimal (as it should) and within the specifications so I feel pleased about that. Given how extremely loose the rotor was before I started the repair, I was worried that other parts, besides the axle, would be damaged, but that fear has been put to rest.

There is not much remaining before I can return it to the owner!

Edited September 27, 2024 by VWatchie

[Knebo]

Wow, I missed all of these last posts!

Great progress, @VWatchie !

  

On 9/16/2024 at 10:23 PM, VWatchie said:

Rolex seems to like grease and in places where I would normally use oil (HP-1300). Interesting.

Yes, I agree that this is an interesting observation. Likewise, using HP-1000 on almost the whole train (except where jewels are capped at the balance and escape wheel). All sounds very "safe" to me. Like they really want to avoid oil spreading and make lubrication last the longest time possible (I always assume that heavier oils will last longer than thinner oils). This matches Rolex's reputation of making workhorse movements / daily beater watches. I respect that about them.

 

On 9/23/2024 at 11:45 AM, VWatchie said:

key to success is to prepare all the parts, lay them out in the right direction, and have the right screwdriver tested beforehand.

I agree 100%. You have to be set up.

 

On 9/23/2024 at 11:45 AM, VWatchie said:

It is nice when the date changes in an instant but the construction does not feel very sophisticated even though it is very beautiful to look at.

What I found very interesting is that the Rolex  2135, i.e. a calibre from the same generation of movements, implements the same date mechanism in a more watchmaker-friendly way:

As you can see, yoke and spring are secured by a screw each. So you can just take care of that first, then add the jewel and snail cam (then the wheel, not pictured). I think it reduces the stress of multi-tasking. 

 

 

On 9/25/2024 at 9:39 PM, VWatchie said:

So, my watch repair friends, the agony is over. The new axle has been riveted!

That looks absolutely perfect. Congrats!

 

On 9/25/2024 at 11:10 PM, VWatchie said:

Yes, indeed! I’m pretty sure I used a bit too much force but was saved by my newly acquired brass hammer. The next time I know I can use a bit less force.

To me, it looks like you hit it just right.

 

 

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

What I found very interesting is that the Rolex  2135, i.e. a calibre from the same generation of movements, implements the same date mechanism in a more watchmaker-friendly way

Indeed, and thanks for sharing the picture. It makes me wonder why the 3135 calibre isn't designed similarly. Perhaps the 2135 is a newer movement!?

9 hours ago, Knebo said:

All sounds very "safe" to me. Like they really want to avoid oil spreading and make lubrication last the longest time possible

I think you are right about that. Also, epilame treating not only the pallet stones but also the pallet fork staff including the pivots and the pallet fork bridge. It looks to me like they want to make absolutely sure to avoid any excess oil from the escape wheel teeth spreading to the pallet fork pivots and jewel holes. I never saw that before so very interesting. Especially as many people are "terrified" of epilam-treating the pallet fork pivots.

[Knebo]

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Perhaps the 2135 is a newer movement!?

I thought the same! But fact-checking revealed the opposite! 

 

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Also, epilame treating not only the pallet stones but also the pallet fork staff including the pivots and the pallet fork bridge

Where did you see that? 

I noted rather the opposite. No epilame on balance jewels. 

My service doc does only mention the "pallet jewels" :

Edited October 2, 2024 by Knebo

[VWatchie]

7 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Where did you see that?

I can't quite remember but if I see it again I'll get back! I think it was an image here on WRT... Give me a minute and I'll see if I can find it.

Edited October 2, 2024 by VWatchie

[Knebo]

Just edited my post (while you were probably writing). See the screenshot from my manual above. 

[VWatchie]

10 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Where did you see that? 

Found it! It was a post from @Jon!