Rolex cal. 3135 issues

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Found it! It was a post from @Jon!

 

Oh wow, interesting. 

Well, I only treated the stones. I'm sure it'll be fine. 

[VWatchie]

So finally, mission accomplished! 

Preliminarily everything looks very good and I am particularly pleased with the repair of the rotor. It was undeniably a bit nerve-wracking to rivet the axle to the rotor but it now seems to work as well as when the watch was new. Who would have thought that you could repair a Rolex by hitting it really hard with a hammer?

Although the owner did not ask me to do so, I polished the case and the bracelet. I was cautious with the case so as not to jeopardise its shape. All I did was polish with Polinoxx polishing compound on a Felpato mop to bring back the lustre. The bracelet I fully polished and brushed as it was very scratched and dull and lost most of its lustre. I got the impression that Rolex stainless steel is extremely hard compared to other watches I polished.

It now remains to test the watch properly for a few days. It is currently spinning on my cyclomat. Preliminarily, the precision seems to be according to specification. I have adjusted the beat error but lack the Rolex special tool to adjust the rate. We will see if it is needed.

In many ways, servicing and repairing my first Rolex has been educational and a lot of fun, if a little nerve-wracking at times, and all the help I've received in this thread has been invaluable. So once again a big warm thank you!

[SwissSeiko]

On 9/23/2024 at 4:45 AM, VWatchie said:

The challenge with the spring is that it is so powerful that it is impossible to hold it back without the movement holder - in my case the Bergeon 4040 - slipping or tipping. In other words, to hold the spring back you must resist or push on the movement holder. Perhaps the dedicated Rolex movement holder is better in this respect!?

 

I've dealt with this before, and I have overcome it by placing the movement holder in my small bench vise. The problem with that being, that the bench surface is no longer under the movement, making a dropped part a guaranteed floor praying situation. 

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

So finally, mission accomplished! 

Preliminarily everything looks very good and I am particularly pleased with the repair of the rotor. It was undeniably a bit nerve-wracking to rivet the axle to the rotor but it now seems to work as well as when the watch was new. Who would have thought that you could repair a Rolex by hitting it really hard with a hammer?

Although the owner did not ask me to do so, I polished the case and the bracelet. I was cautious with the case so as not to jeopardise its shape. All I did was polish with Polinoxx polishing compound on a Felpato mop to bring back the lustre. The bracelet I fully polished and brushed as it was very scratched and dull and lost most of its lustre. I got the impression that Rolex stainless steel is extremely hard compared to other watches I polished.

It now remains to test the watch properly for a few days. It is currently spinning on my cyclomat. Preliminarily, the precision seems to be according to specification. I have adjusted the beat error but lack the Rolex special tool to adjust the rate. We will see if it is needed.

In many ways, servicing and repairing my first Rolex has been educational and a lot of fun, if a little nerve-wracking at times, and all the help I've received in this thread has been invaluable. So once again a big warm thank you!

Looks great! 

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, SwissSeiko said:

I've dealt with this before, and I have overcome it by placing the movement holder in my small bench vise. The problem with that being, that the bench surface is no longer under the movement, making a dropped part a guaranteed floor praying situation. 

I tried that during disassembly but it felt too awkward as I couldn't support my hands on the workbench in addition to, as you mention, the risk of dropping parts and having no idea where they went. So, I decided to abandon that idea.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Although the owner did not ask me to do so, I polished the case and the bracelet.

this is one of the reasons Rolex watch repair is so expensive as typically refinishing the case is included in the repair.. then if you really obsessed with case refinishing often times typically the band and sometimes the case will have satin finish with shiny finish. 

but yes looking at your picture refinishing or polishing the case makes it look better and that's all the customer typically sees anyway all the work that you did inside they're not going to see other than as long as the watch keeps time. So making the outside looks nice makes the customer happy.

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

lack the Rolex special tool to adjust the rate. We will see if it is needed.

I think you would have noticed by now if you had needed to regulate. As the timing machine in the shop sits behind me I get to see all sorts of bizarre things like Rolex watches that people of played with.  typically a Rolex watch will keep phenomenal time but often times people without timing machines or possibly functional brains. We'll play with the regulating weights and you end up with like horrible positional errors which is very noticeable of course the timing machine.

or briefly when we were short a watchmaker we set work out and one day when the persons bringing the watches back I did ask whether he had a timing machine. Yes he assured me that he had a timing machine but based on what we were seeing he never looked at the timing and more than one position. Plus I asked about the lubrication a pallet fork pivots and somebody told him that was a good thing to do. Fortunately we got a better watchmaker in-house and this person went away. Because that meant the owner would spend a lot of time regulating the Rolex watch to the way it's supposed to be regulated which kinda canceled out the effect of sending a watch out to be serviced if it didn't keep time when I came back

On 9/23/2024 at 2:45 AM, VWatchie said:

Bergeon 4040 - slipping or tipping. In other words, to hold the spring back you must resist or push on the movement holder. Perhaps the dedicated Rolex movement holder is better in this respect!?

depending upon the size of the watches you work on the movement holder is below are very nice to use. what makes the holders interesting is one side is for holding one side of the movement and the other side has a slightly different sized to hold the dial side. Typically on Swiss watches the dial side will have a lip that's a slightly different diameter than the movement size. In other words these were designed for specific size watches.

Then as nice as they are cousins does not have a nice price at all. I thought they were expensive many years ago where I purchased mine but not as expensive as this. Maybe the Chinese have cloned them now. But still if you're working on similar size watches I found they were really nice.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/by-size-bergeon-5914?code=M43105

 

 

 

 

 

[VWatchie]

On 10/7/2024 at 8:08 PM, JohnR725 said:

often times typically the band and sometimes the case will have satin finish with shiny finish.

Very interesting and so I noticed because the side of the bracelet facing the body was intact and only slightly worn so I saw no need to polish it. When I now compare the two sides of the bracelet, they are both satin-brushed (of course!) but the side that I didn't polish has a little more shimmer. It's not that there is a remarkable difference that the owner will notice or be bothered by, but as I said, the sides don't look completely identical.

Perhaps a quick light polish with a soft Felpato mop and some Polinoxx would create that additional shimmer on the satin surface?

On 10/7/2024 at 8:08 PM, JohnR725 said:

I think you would have noticed by now if you had needed to regulate.

I haven't measured it extensively on my TMs yet. However, the rate looks consistent as it gains 10 seconds per day (give or take a few tenths of a second) when on my Cyklomat and the delta of the positional errors was as I remember it within specifications but I need to measure again.

So yes, it looks like it would benefit from being regulated. I will have to check with the owner if she wants to make the added investment in time and the required tool. I was hoping the repair and service would make regulation unnecessary. While searching I found a couple of helpful posts about the Microstella tool used for regulating the movement while still in the case (links below).

Anyway, any additional practical advice or comments about how to use the Microstella tool would be very much appreciated!

On 10/7/2024 at 8:08 PM, JohnR725 said:

depending upon the size of the watches you work on the movement holder is below are very nice to use.

On 10/7/2024 at 8:08 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then as nice as they are cousins does not have a nice price at all.

And I doubt they can be had for much less anywhere else. Nevertheless, when working on an expensive movement like the Rolex movement it could be worth the investment. Thanks for the link.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

20 hours ago, VWatchie said:

satin surface?

the satin finish is supposed to be satin finished. I think anything you do to make it shiny conceivably will make it into a shiny finish when it's not supposed to be shiny it's supposed to be satin. Providing it actually is supposed to be satin? you should be able look up the I don't know what Rolex calls it but the model number and hopefully see what it was supposed to look like when it was new.

20 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I was hoping the repair and service would make regulation unnecessary. While searching I found a couple of helpful posts about the Microstella tool used for regulating the movement while still in the case (links below).

thinking of regulation of the watch do you have the service manual?

Then out of curiosity I asked the other watchmaker we have who does Rolex watches specifically to the 3135. So apparently every single watch he ever services with a minor exception all have to be regulated. The only time he said he typically does not have to regulate the watch if, I suppose this was subject to interpretation is a watch that does not actually have to be serviced. so as typically Rolex owners like to stretch the servicing interval out until the watch disintegrates I'm guessing what you saying is somebody acts against the watch serviced within the specified time range then of course providing nobody else played with it before.

 

 

[VWatchie]

On 10/10/2024 at 10:17 AM, JohnR725 said:

I think anything you do to make it shiny conceivably will make it into a shiny finish when it's not supposed to be shiny it's supposed to be satin.

I'm not sure what the difference between satin and brushed is. Perhaps satin is just a finely brushed surface!? The original brushed surface was slightly coarser and a bit more shiny. Anyway, compared to what I accomplished it would take a sharp eye and the correct angle of light to tell the difference. Some day I will experiment with very lightly polishing a brushed surface.

On 10/10/2024 at 10:17 AM, JohnR725 said:

So apparently every single watch he ever services with a minor exception all have to be regulated.

That's encouraging to hear! I thought a "perfectly" serviced Rolex would automatically go back to its original tolerances unless previously tampered with. I don't know but I'm pretty sure the Rolex I've been working on has not been opened by anyone else before.

Here are the results:

I assess that the movement works as well as it is supposed to but the rate needs to be adjusted. I have asked the owner if we should invest in a Microstella tool and had my question answered with a yes. However, I am wondering how I can hold the balance wheel and watch case safely so that I do not risk breaking off the staff pivots. I haven't found a video that illustrates it but I'll re-read the links in my previous post a bit more carefully. If you have any tips I would be grateful. As usual, I am probably worrying too much  Anyway, better safe than sorry.

Edited October 13, 2024 by VWatchie

[RichardHarris123]

I found this 

https://www.watchprosite.com/horological-meandering/on-request-the-rolex-microstella-tool/17.1179526.9410911/

https://youtu.be/3V7bVkqJuOQ?si=9XgfuB3TC_5nvRoV

[Knebo]

Hello all, 

I do have a microstella tool, but I've never dared to use it.... but I'd like to try.

The thing that worries me the most is to hold the balance with tweezers (while doing the adjustment). The rationale is to do this to prevent putting stress on the balance pivots, but I'm scared that holding the balance will cause stress and possibly bend the pivots.. or do you think that's an exaggerated worry?

On 10/13/2024 at 1:14 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

I found this 

https://www.watchprosite.com/horological-meandering/on-request-the-rolex-microstella-tool/17.1179526.9410911/

https://youtu.be/3V7bVkqJuOQ?si=9XgfuB3TC_5nvRoV

 

On 10/13/2024 at 1:02 PM, VWatchie said:

This looks very nice in terms of amplitude, delta and beat error. Congrats! But, of course, the average rate is now the debate. 

[VWatchie]

On 10/16/2024 at 11:09 AM, Knebo said:

The thing that worries me the most is to hold the balance with tweezers (while doing the adjustment). The rationale is to do this to prevent putting stress on the balance pivots, but I'm scared that holding the balance will cause stress and possibly bend the pivots.. or do you think that's an exaggerated worry?

Thanks for your input!

I've been looking at it the same way you have, but after thinking about it for a few days, I think it's probably an exaggerated concern. 

The reason I think this is an exaggerated worry is that the anti-shock system not only protects the pivots vertically but actually also laterally. For a long time, I thought that anti-shock systems such as KIF and Incabloc only protect the pivots vertically but after watching one of Kalle Slaap's videos I realised that the anti-shock systems were smarter than that. I will see if I can find the video again.

That said, you should probably still be as careful as you can, just in case. I'm going to try to keep the balance on some scrap movement before I try it for real. As always, it's important to try to find a way of working that allows you to relax. It's when you tense up, which, paradoxically, you always do when you're doing something difficult and really need to be relaxed, that things go wrong.

[Knebo]

11 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Thanks for your input!

I've been looking at it the same way you have, but after thinking about it for a few days, I think it's probably an exaggerated concern. 

The reason I think this is an exaggerated worry is that the anti-shock system not only protects the pivots vertically but actually also laterally. For a long time, I thought that anti-shock systems such as KIF and Incabloc only protect the pivots vertically but after watching one of Kalle Slaap's videos I realised that the anti-shock systems were smarter than that. I will see if I can find the video again.

That said, you should probably still be as careful as you can, just in case. I'm going to try to keep the balance on some scrap movement before I try it for real. As always, it's important to try to find a way of working that allows you to relax. It's when you tense up, which, paradoxically, you always do when you're doing something difficult and really need to be relaxed, that things go wrong.

Yes, I know that video from Kalle. That's a great one. Indeed, the shock systems are pretty good. 

 

 

[Jon]

I find using some angles tweezers such as No.7's to gently hold the rim of the balance whilst turning the Microstella screws, You'll be surprised at how much force is needed to turn some of them. Most of the time they turn with a little resistance, but a little, otherwise they would turn and throw the timing out.

But every now and then you'll come across one that is a little tighter than you would like and then you'll realiser the importance of the angles tweezers to hold the rim.

I've got some vintage Rolex's to service this week, so they don't have Microstella adjustments, but I'll do a video when a newer one comes in.

There's no reason not to bring this Rolex within Chronometer standards again; it's like anything, the fist time you do it, there's that voice telling you it'll all go wrong, which it won't.

 

[RichardHarris123]

Couldn't a clamp be made to hold the balance wheel and leave both hands free? 

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, Jon said:

I find using some angles tweezers such as No.7's to gently hold the rim of the balance whilst turning the Microstella screws

Thanks for your input Jon which is always much appreciated!

I have a pair of Bergeon 7025-6 tweezers that I bought for manipulating hairsprings. I can't say I was particularly enamoured with them (long story) so I haven't used them very much. I haven't had time to test them for holding a balance yet but wonder if you think they might be an alternative to the No.7? The worst thing is that the owner of the watch will have to wait another couple of weeks if I have to order No.7 tweezers. I ordered the Microstella tool on 14/10 but have not yet received it...

7 hours ago, Jon said:

I've got some vintage Rolex's to service this week, so they don't have Microstella adjustments, but I'll do a video when a newer one comes in.

It would be greatly appreciated! I've been looking online but everything I've found regarding methods of keeping the balance while manipulating the screws feels a bit fuzzy.

7 hours ago, Jon said:

There's no reason not to bring this Rolex within Chronometer standards again; it's like anything, the fist time you do it, there's that voice telling you it'll all go wrong, which it won't.

Thanks for the encouragement Jon and so far you have been right! I'll keep my fingers crossed you'll be right again 

7 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Couldn't a clamp be made to hold the balance wheel and leave both hands free? 

Yes, that would be really nice! Maybe an idea for Bergeon? 

Edited October 22, 2024 by VWatchie

[Jon]

On 10/22/2024 at 9:25 PM, VWatchie said:

It would be greatly appreciated! I've been looking online but everything I've found regarding methods of keeping the balance while manipulating the screws feels a bit fuzzy.

I've got a Rolex 3185 GMT that came in today which will be on the bench next week with a rotor axle that needs replacing and I'll make a vid of adjusting the Microstella screws. The angles tweezers you've got will work fine.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

I've got a Rolex 3185 GMT that came in today which will be on the bench next week with a rotor axle that needs replacing and I'll make a vid of adjusting the Microstella screws. The angles tweezers you've got will work fine.

Fantastic news Jon!  Can't wait for the video!

I was on the verge of ordering some other tweezers for this job so much appreciated for suggesting I can use the one I have. 

[Knebo]

2 hours ago, Jon said:

I'll make a vid of adjusting the Microstella screws

Me too! Very much looking forward to that!

 

On 10/22/2024 at 2:44 PM, Jon said:

tweezers such as No.7

On 10/22/2024 at 10:25 PM, VWatchie said:

have a pair of Bergeon 7025-6 tweezers

 

2 hours ago, Jon said:

The angles tweezers you've got will work fine.

 

I know I'm overthinking this.. but I'm going to write my question anyway (thinking that @VWatchieis an even greater perfectionist than me and that he'd forgive me for bringing in doubts at this point):

Should we be concerned with the material of the tweezers? 

I have cheap brass No7's and expensive steel No6's (like @VWatchie's). 

I think that my grip would be more firm/secure with the No6, but I'm now worried that the steel may more likely scratch the balance (keyword: poise). The brass No7 are softer... 

But probably, it's a question of just the right gentleness of your touch, isn't it, @Jon? 

[VWatchie]

12 hours ago, Knebo said:

I know I'm overthinking this..

We must be very, very alike, again! 

When I went to bed last night, my mind spun around the questions you raised, keeping me from falling asleep. So I got out of bed and went to the Cousins' site to look at number 7 tweezers. I ordered a number 7 Indian tweezers in brass (plus a few other bits and bobs, of course!). At £2.45, it wasn't a difficult decision, and if the tweezers turn out to be unusable "rubbish," then it's not a financial disaster.

The plan is to polish the tips of the tweezers to a round shape so that I don't unnecessarily risk scratching the main plate. Having said that, after @Jon's feedback, I am convinced that brass tweezers are not necessary, but it is always stimulating to try something new. It's probably the same situation as when we deal with hands. Using steel tweezers is fine as long as we are careful and know what we are doing.

[Knebo]

Oh no, @VWatchie, so sorry to have caused a lack of sleep. 

I have the exact same brass No7's from India/Cousins. They can be dressed to work just fine.

[VWatchie]

6 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Oh no, @VWatchie, so sorry to have caused a lack of sleep. 

I have the exact same brass No7's from India/Cousins. They can be dressed to work just fine.

No worries Knebo, you didn't. I wasn't clear. I didn't read your post until this morning. That's why I said we think alike!

Edited October 25, 2024 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I ordered a number 7 Indian tweezers in brass (plus a few other bits and

I  bought a couple of those when started H , they are very soft... i would be tempted to cut the tips back to where they are thicker and wider. You're looking for a balance between not scratching and having the ability to hold something firmly enough so that it doesn't move. If the balance wheel slips within your tweezers grip while you adjust them that a risk. I often wonder what tweezer material is the most grippy, initially i thought brass but then brass bearings are used for their low friction . I like Richard's idea to clamp the balance, but that means removing it from the watch for every adjustment made, i do have a couple of dedicated balance clamp bench tools but generally when i want to hold a balance firmly i use pliers lined with tape, nylon pliers might be good in this instance.

[Jon]

The material of the tweezers isn't important, it's how you grip the balance that is. You can adjust the screws without a pair of tweezers holding the balance still, but it is a bit risky. The shockproof will give a bit, but the last thing you want is to hear that noise no watchmaker wants to hear. That 'SNAP'; you know the one I mean. When you hear that, you know you're in trouble.

Also, it might be an idea for a first go to take the balance out of the movement and place the balance on a balance tack that has a supporting table for the balance. You can then hold the balance from the sides with your finger and thumb whilst turning the screws equally. That is probably the hardest part in getting the screws to turn evenly and not put it out of poise. You'll know if you have when it goes on the timegrapher in vertical positions. This will give you a feel of the Microstella screws without the risk. Once you feel confident, put the balance back in the movement and finish the last bit off in situ, using the tweezers this time. The trick is to relax, which is hard to do and the more you see your hand shake the more you're telling yourself to relax and the more pressure you're putting yourself under. Eventually muscle memory will take over and it'll be like an out of body experience of watching yourself adjusting the screws to perfection. There will be no more worry, only confidence in what you are doing.

I found a vid I did a while ago on a 2135, so made a GIF. The hand with the supporting tweezers is resting on a block just out of shot, so my hand is totally steady.

Here's a link to my cloud where the original video is, but it won't be there for long. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CJUCz846vvgf6uUNIK7m9CWL7j5fxjSW/view?usp=sharing

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

the last thing you want is to hear that noise no watchmaker wants to hear. That 'SNAP'; you know the one I mean. When you hear that, you know you're in trouble.

Just reading it made me more scared than any event around Halloween ever did! 

1 hour ago, Jon said:

The hand with the supporting tweezers is resting on a block just out of shot, so my hand is totally steady.

This is probably the most important tip: Allow yourself to relax as much as possible. Holding your hand in the air and thinking you can keep it still is doomed to failure.

1 hour ago, Jon said:

Also, it might be an idea for a first go to take the balance out of the movement and place the balance on a balance tack that has a supporting table for the balance. You can then hold the balance from the sides with your finger and thumb whilst turning the screws equally.

Another possibility might be to put the balance on a clean staking block, put the roller table in a hole just big enough, and then hold the balance with tweezers. That's what I do when adjusting the collet position. That was a tip I got from @nickelsilver some years ago:

        "For everyday work, from the smallest ladies' movements to the marine chronometers,
        I set the balance with the cock on a bench block so the roller table is in a
        hole, balance on the block. Lift up the cock and move it over not flipping
        it, just moving laterally, until I can see the slot in the hairspring collet,
        get in there and adjust (for tiny watches this is usually with an oiler,
        larger, a small screwdriver). I hold a balance arm of the rim with tweezers
        while moving the collet. Go back in the watch and check on the machine."

1 hour ago, Jon said:

Here's a link to my cloud where the original video is, but it won't be there for long.

Now downloaded to my Onedrive for future use and as a reminder. Many thanks Jon, much appreciated!