Rotary skeleton part identification

[djwilliams37]

Hi

My watch had a fall and some pieces fell out onto the face. I have put all the push in hour markers back in but I can't find out what this piece is. The watch won't work and goes through an unwinding process when the winder is pulled out

[tomh207]

That’s the regulator arm off the balance cock by the looks of it. If the fall dislodged that I would think there will be much worse damage and you’ll need a watchmaker to repair.

 

Tom

[RichardHarris123]

I suspect the same, I bet the balance staff is broken. 

[mikepilk]

A couple of years ago I tried to repair one of these Rotary "skeleton" watches for a friend. It was a cheap Chinese movement and didn't seem designed to be taken apart. The metal was poor quality, which in a skeleton movement means lack of rigidity can mean parts falling off. From what I remember he dropped it and the pallet fell out.  As a replacement movement was only about £25, it wasn't worth trying to fix, and I just changed the movement.

I would suggest you identify the movement and see what a replacement costs.

At least they don't have the cheek to write "Swiss made" on the dial. 

[djwilliams37]

Thanks all for the assistance, it is most appreciated. I was hoping it was a simple fix as the part was on the face after the fall. It does seem a shame that the watch states Rotary as the make and then made in Japan is marked on the back. It sounds like I need to identify in some way what model the works are. Does a replacement require the face taking apart etc?

Cheers Dave 

[tomh207]

It’s a watch that likely it will be more cost effective to replace the movement if available than try to repair.

 

Tom

[nevenbekriev]

Actually, the regulator seems to be OK, needs  just to be placed on but it is not clear what has happened with the hairspring as now probably the studd carrier is hanging on it...

[djwilliams37]

Are you saying that you think the regulator can be placed back if the hair spring can be located and is in good condition? Where does the regulator arm sit in the works? 

[mikepilk]

14 hours ago, djwilliams37 said:

 It does seem a shame that the watch states Rotary as the make and then made in Japan is marked on the back.

A Japanese movement will be better quality than the Chinese one I worked on. 

Can you provide a close-up pic of the back of the movement?

[Neverenoughwatches]

My first thoughts are, if you do need to remove the dial for whatever reason, i would want to be very careful about taking off those hands off with hand levers, a good level of support and protection for the works underneath, or hand pullers which i hate.

[clockboy]

I had one of these my bench the top balance shock spring had become dislodged and had jammed itself into the case stem tube.. 

The problem was could not find a replacement spring so,had to modify a vintage spring I had in stock.. If I remember correctly the movement was a Chinese Seiko clone. 

[Terrinecold]

18 hours ago, djwilliams37 said:

Thanks all for the assistance, it is most appreciated. I was hoping it was a simple fix as the part was on the face after the fall. It does seem a shame that the watch states Rotary as the make and then made in Japan is marked on the back. It sounds like I need to identify in some way what model the works are. Does a replacement require the face taking apart etc?

Cheers Dave 

I think it is this movement

https://miyotamovement.com/product/8N24/

That is Japanese.  I say that based on the picture.

I practiced very recently on a cheap Chinese skeleton (watch was $25 delivered the same day from Amazon on a Sunday that gives you an idea of how cheap) and bemoaned how bad was the center wheel retaining plate.  At the time I looked up a few other skeleton movements and thought they looked better constructed.  I distinctively remembered the shape of the Miyota retaining plate.

 

[nevenbekriev]

10 hours ago, djwilliams37 said:

Are you saying that you think the regulator can be placed back if the hair spring can be located and is in good condition? Where does the regulator arm sit in the works? 

Yes, the regulator can be put on it's place back, and this is for sure. What is not clear is the condition of the movement other parts, as what You describe seems frigthfull. You need to show pictures of the movement and try to explain more clear what is the movement behavior.

[RichardHarris123]

Unfortunately, I think that if the nock was so severe that it displaced the regulator, then other parts are also broken.  

[djwilliams37]

Hi

Thanks again for all the assistance. It is indeed the Japanese 8n24 movement. I have taken a picture of the back of the movement which hopefully shows the area where the regulator sits. 

The watch hands do not move at all and the watch if wound rapidly unwinds if the winder is fully pulled out 

[djwilliams37]

Not sure if this close up of the front helps. I have found several 8n24 movements available on Ebay for £22 and above. Is it difficult to replace the face and hands onto a new movement 

[nevenbekriev]

Sorry, You have some kind of major problem that causes that rapid unwinding, when stem is moved to hands setting position. Also the hairspring is badly deformed. As You don't have expirience in watch repairs, it will be much much easier for You to get new movement and repllace. It is easy to remove dial and hands, but measures needed to be taken to prevent them from deformation and damafe of appearence. You need to remove the second and minute nands only. Watch some videos to see how it is done.

[djwilliams37]

Thanks for your most appreciated assessment with this. I will purchase a new movement. 

[djwilliams37]

There are plenty of 8n24 movements available but I think they are all Chinese copies. Most have the name Myota Japan on them but ship from China. Are these if copies worth purchasing? The prices vary from £20 upwards 

[Terrinecold]

I am interested in the response by more knowledgeable forum members. 
I have been assuming that the movements @djwilliams37 is referring to are authentic. 
I assumed that for a couple of reasons:

the Japanese movements being made mostly of not all by machines and being fairly cheap as can be seen by the price of the final watches I am not sure the benefit from making fake movement would be there.  After all the market of people buying a few movement here and there can’t be that big vs companies actually making watches and sourcing the movements in bulk. 
 

On the same platforms I see the actual clones correctly label. So I expected the problem of fake to be more at the level of complete watches and/or Swiss movements 

 

 

[tomh207]

23 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

I am interested in the response by more knowledgeable forum members. 
I have been assuming that the movements @djwilliams37 is referring to are authentic. 
I assumed that for a couple of reasons:

the Japanese movements being made mostly of not all by machines and being fairly cheap as can be seen by the price of the final watches I am not sure the benefit from making fake movement would be there.  After all the market of people buying a few movement here and there can’t be that big vs companies actually making watches and sourcing the movements in bulk. 
 

On the same platforms I see the actual clones correctly label. So I expected the problem of fake to be more at the level of complete watches and/or Swiss movements 

 

 

China brings a few conundrums to mind, they do legitimately make parts, movements and assemble for the likes of Seiko etc. I have heard around that seiko movements are being copied in China, but if you consider how many sea-gull 1963 chronographs that are on the market that have never seen the inside of a sea-gull factory then the surprise goes away somewhat. There is also the possibility that these are surplus being sold by one of the many factories that make watches for micro brands. 
 

Tom

[Terrinecold]

For now at least I will be optimistic and assume that when I buy such a movement they are genuine. Of course if someone was trying to pass something as a genuine ETA for $30 that is something else. 
 

 

[djwilliams37]

Some of the copies are easy to spot as they have no manufacture named on them. Others have the correct information on them but when reading the given details another name is given for the manufacturer 

[djwilliams37]

I have ordered an 8n24 from a Chinese supplier on Amazon. It looks like a genuine part. I will update when it arrives and I have fitted it. 

Many thanks too all who have helped me with this

[djwilliams37]

As promised after finally getting round to tackling the watch repair here is an update of how I got on.

The new movement arrived and all looked okay and matched up with the existing works. I had problems separating the works from the plastic cage and face. The new works came with some miniature screws and a couple of small plates I eventually spotted these and figured they clamped the works to the plastic. I still couldn't remove the works or face. After sometime I managed to loosen the face and found it was clamped to the works via a prong running down from the face. Unfortunately there were 2 prongs and I managed to snap one off. 

I attempted to glue the hour markers back onto the face from the back but when reassembling the watch some came loose and I had to superglue them from the front using a very fine wire strand to apply a very small amount. 

The watch hands came off using a set of levers from Amazon for £5. I came up with a method for holding the miniature screws so I could get them into position. I made a loop in a strand of fine electrical wire and used this to hold the screw. I would never have managed without doing this. 

The watch hands took me a while to put back on and after watching a YouTube video several times and purchasing hand pressers from Amazon for £5. I finally managed to get them back on. The seconds hand was by far the most challenging due to its small size and delicacy. The watch has been running a few days now and keeping good time. 

Once again many thanks for your help. I don't think I would have got started without your help