PALLET FORK INSTALLATION

[Davis]

Having trouble installing pallet fork on my vintage Pandow movement. can't seem to get the lower pivot in place to install the pallet fork cock.  Would it be easier to remove the  escape wheel and then try to install the pallet fork??  Then reinstall escapement.

Lower pivot is present and lower jewel appears to be open but can not install pivot into the jewel.

Thanks for any guidance, Dave

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, Davis said:

Having trouble installing pallet fork on my vintage Pandow movement. can't seem to get the lower pivot in place to install the pallet fork cock.  Would it be easier to remove the  escape wheel and then try to install the pallet fork??  Then reinstall escapement.

Lower pivot is present and lower jewel appears to be open but can not install pivot into the jewel.

Thanks for any guidance, Dave

Has the pallet fork been previously fitted to know that the pivot definitely fits in the jewel hole. 

[Davis]

neverenough,

Yes the watch was completely assembled when I received it. My wife's grandmothers watch. I had to replace the banking pins but the lower jewel seems OK. See photo.

Dave

[Davis]

neverenough,

Upon further inspection  (10 power loup) I found that there  was a slight bend in the frame there the lower jewel was fitted. Very thin brass do to all the metal removal to make room  for the parts. I must have done that then I pressed in the new banking pins.  In the process in flatting out the area. Reinstall the jewel and see where I stand.

Dave

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 hours ago, Davis said:

neverenough,

Yes the watch was completely assembled when I received it. My wife's grandmothers watch. I had to replace the banking pins but the lower jewel seems OK. See photo.

Dave

Hi dave, what was the reason for replacing the banking pins ?

[Davis]

neverenough,

In taking the watch apart I noticed one banking pin was bent. I tried to straighten and it broke. Measured the best I could and made new ones. Had to rebore so I did both pins. It took me a few attempts (and critized for poor workmanship). Redid the work and it turned much better. Attached photo.

In the mean time I noticed that indeed the lower pivot was broken off.  Now looking for new balance fork.  I might be able to replace the shaft.

Dave

 

[mikepilk]

The pins may have been bent on purpose. Altering banking pins opens a (very large) can of worms. Setting them  correctly takes some effort, and reading up on what is required, as you will find if you search the forum.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Davis said:

neverenough,

In taking the watch apart I noticed one banking pin was bent. I tried to straighten and it broke. Measured the best I could and made new ones. Had to rebore so I did both pins. It took me a few attempts (and critized for poor workmanship). Redid the work and it turned much better. Attached photo.

In the mean time I noticed that indeed the lower pivot was broken off.  Now looking for new balance fork.  I might be able to replace the shaft.

Dave

 

Ok so banking pins are not always perfectly straight and it may have been set this way on purpose, possibly even at the factory. There are various checks to be made before attempting any straightening up of them.

At this stage i would carry on as you are, the banking positions will either be right or wrong so deal with that when the time comes. Your first step in having to replace the pallet fork is to correctly identify the movement you are working on Dave

Do you know how to do this Dave ?  Pandow is only a watch co. name, not the name of the movement maker. 

[RichardHarris123]

I can't see anything under where the balance sits, anything on the dial side? 

[Davis]

Gentleman,

No other markings on the watch except those in the photo and the number 38 stamped on the dial side. The back of the dial has 3 5 74 scratched on it. I assume that was the date last serviced. I checked on the Pandow Watch Co and could only find an attribute of an article in 1905. As you can see Pandow is stamped on the movement.

I used the "German" website to try and identify by shape. It showed a "similar" movement but I can't remember the name. 

I will try to find a pallet fork that fits.  Unfortunately none of the ones shown for sale have any dimensions.  I can't believe there are that many different sizes. I know watch movements are sized by calibre but I am not sure if that determine component sizing. 

Retired Mechanical Engineer who likes to repair things.  Watch repair is what I am working on at the present.

Thanks again for all the comments, Dave

I just found my documentation.  It is similar to an AS 555 ,which I know nothing about. 

Dave

[RichardHarris123]

If you provide the dimensions of the movement and photos of the keyless works, someone may be able to help, if not then it's a guessing game.  As you have discovered, many different sizes for all dimensions.  

Chemical Engineering for me, we have a few Electrical Engineers on here, amongst other Mechanical Engineers. 

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Dave,

Sorry, but You have gone wrong too far here.

The banking pins on the photo look wrong as they are too thick and at least one of them is on completelly wrong position. Bending them will not help, may be some filing may open enough free space for the pallet fork, but it has to be done with understanding the interaction fork/ balance and fork/ escape wheel. So You need to learn the escapement action in details.

The pallet fork is something that can not be replaced by size. There are too many sizes in it and their combinations are endless number. You need pallet fork from the same calibre, so You need to find out what calibre it is. Then You will need to source a donor movement. Still palet stones adjustment will be needed to accomodate the pallet fork from donor. Thus, it will be much easier to repair the donor than what You have... The other option is to make new staff for the pallet fork, but it needs lathe work and skills

Edited June 10, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[JohnR725]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:51 PM, Davis said:

I had to replace the banking pins but the lower jewel seems OK.

 

22 hours ago, Davis said:

I will try to find a pallet fork that fits.  Unfortunately none of the ones shown for sale have any dimensions.  I can't believe there are that many different sizes. I know watch movements are sized by calibre but I am not sure if that determine component sizing.

19 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Sorry, but You have gone wrong too far here.

I rather like the third quote that I have from @nevenbekriev for which unfortunately I have to agree. A whole variety of actions have been taken based on the perception that there was a problem or just visually it look like there might be a problem?

On 6/8/2024 at 1:51 PM, Davis said:

Yes the watch was completely assembled when I received it. My wife's grandmothers watch.

one of the things that I always like is background history so the watch was completely assembled all the components were there. what was the condition of the watch did it run for instance? Did it just need cleaning before all these interesting repairs took place.

Then grandmothers watch sentimental value to anybody in the family? Always best when starting off in a new field to not to work on things that will get you in trouble with the family just in case.

23 hours ago, Davis said:

I checked on the Pandow Watch Co and could only find an attribute of an article in 1905. As you can see Pandow is stamped on the movement.

one of the problems for people new to watch repair is the failure to grasp where movements come from. Sometimes there made in-house by the company stamp on the plates but usually they're basically an OEM component purchased by a company.

then the company name? Just because a name is on the plate doesn't actually mean that's the same company that originally held the name. For instance the Elgin watch company all that exists of the company is the name. Watches made in China with the name so it's a valid name it just isn't the same watch is that Elgin made way back when. There are all kinds a Swiss companies that people have started back up again and talk about their proud history of but the really not the same company all that's left is the name which is very unhelpful in watch repair

On 6/8/2024 at 12:54 PM, Davis said:

escapement.

the escapement is a very interesting location in the watch and unfortunately a extremely critical location. Everything here is critical changing anything conceivably means the watch will never run again. So for instance visually you now have street banking pins but are the in the exact location there supposed to be? Then attempting to find a generic pallet fork to replace the one that is damaged will lead to failure.

19 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

The other option is to make new staff for the pallet fork, but it needs lathe work and skills

actually another option would be just to replace the staff. Until we identify the actual maker of the movement we won't know much of anything but typically on watches there are some generic components. Mainspring is can be ordered by size. Or pallet fork staffs at least you use to build a buy new ones so we just need the dimensions of the staff and if you're really lucky we may build just replace the staff itself without making a new one. Making a new one is rather tricky as they typically are really tiny.

23 hours ago, Davis said:

I just found my documentation.  It is similar to an AS 555 ,which I know nothing about. 

just now checking two of the sources that I would look at I'm not seeing a 555 listed?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

21 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Sorry, but You have gone wrong too far here.

I rather like the third quote that I have from @nevenbekriev for which unfortunately I have to agree. A whole variety of actions have been taken based on the perception that there was a problem or just visually it look like there might be a problem

It sort of tickled me as well, like saying you've really screwed up but in a diplomatic and kind way.  

[RichardHarris123]

Haha, this is a friendly forum but sometimes we really need to say " you screwed up "

 No malice, just sometimes we just need to be direct. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Haha, this is a friendly forum but sometimes we really need to say " you screwed up "

 No malice, just sometimes we just need to be direct. 

Direct is my middle name, if you want direct then call me, i am as direct as direct can be, master of directness, if i was a phone book i would be  "THE DIRECTOR OF THE DIRECTORY"  if i was traffic controller i would be " THE DIRECTIONS MANAGER " 

I was gonna join the pop group " One Direction "  but they wouldn't let me change the name to " Only Rich's Direction "

[nevenbekriev]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Or pallet fork staffs at least you use to build a buy new ones so we just need the dimensions of the staff and if you're really lucky we may build just replace the staff itself without making a new one. Making a new one is rather tricky as they typically are really tiny.

Yes, agree, the pallet fork staffs are small and not easier to make than balance staff for example. Just I am not used to search and buy parts, I make what I need by default.  I am not sure where I shoud search for one if I need to...

Just to say that here I expect the staff to be threaded type, looking at the type of movement.

[Nucejoe]

 I don't suppose  you have a picture of banking pins before you attempted  streightening=ruined now.

It's always helpful to take many pictures, as you disassemble. 

Banking pins were in all likelihood bent for basic adjustments in escapement at the manufacturer assembly line.

Rgds

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Just to say that here I expect the staff to be threaded type

 later in the day I was looking at a watch and unfortunately I came to the same conclusion of wondering whether this is going to be a threaded type. Which is definitely going to make things much more interesting to replace.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 I don't suppose  you have a picture of banking pins before you attempted  streightening=ruined now.

It's always helpful to take many pictures, as you disassemble. 

Banking pins were in all likelihood bent for basic adjustments in escapement at the manufacturer assembly line.

Rgds

 

 

 

The replacements dont look too good to be honest.  If one broke then just replace one. In all fairness i guess it doesn't matter too much what the pins look like as long as there is sufficient material to trim back and they still do their intended job of banking, they just ain't going to look pretty.

[nickelsilver]

4 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Yes, agree, the pallet fork staffs are small and not easier to make than balance staff for example. Just I am not used to search and buy parts, I make what I need by default.  I am not sure where I shoud search for one if I need to...

Just to say that here I expect the staff to be threaded type, looking at the type of movement.

100% agree- I would rather make a balance staff than a pallet fork arbor. Unless:

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

 later in the day I was looking at a watch and unfortunately I came to the same conclusion of wondering whether this is going to be a threaded type. Which is definitely going to make things much more interesting to replace.

-unless they are threaded. Not that making the thread is so hard (though it can be), but you have to really have all your measurements spot on as there is no recourse for height adjustment.

 

Funny thing, well funny to me- the first fork I made was because of a threaded arbor. Watchmaker tried to knock out the arbor thinking it was friction fitted, but it was threaded, and the fork split in two. Maybe it's funny to me because it was my brother who did it .

Edited June 12, 2024 by nickelsilver

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 I don't suppose  you have a picture of banking pins before you attempted  streightening=ruined now.

I'm not sure that we want a really see the pictures but there are a few pictures in another discussion found at the link below. then we looking at the pictures maybe it's an optical illusion maybe it's my imagination but I'm not sure the pins are exactly where there supposed to be. Especially as the holes to not quite look like there where there supposed to be but as I said it's probably just an optical illusion hopefully?

 

 

[Waggy]

56 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

In all fairness i guess it doesn't matter too much what the pins look like as long as there is sufficient material to trim back and they still do their intended job of banking, they just ain't going to look pretty.

Just thinking about the above, if the banking pins are angled 'V' shape (which they look like in the photo)  then due to end shake of the pallet fork the distance the pallet fork will travel when in the dial up will be different from the distance it will travel in the dial down, which will make regulation very difficult if not impossible.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Just thinking about the above, if the banking pins are angled 'V' shape (which they look like in the photo)  then due to end shake of the pallet fork the distance the pallet fork will travel when in the dial up will be different from the distance it will travel in the dial down, which will make regulation very difficult if not impossible.

The banking would change from DD to DU yes scott, ideally the pins should be kept parallel so that banking remains the same for both positions. I have a picture in an old book where the pins are brought closer together but have a knee bend in them to bring straight again. 

So what would change when switching between the two positions if the pins are bent ? The depth of lock would be different, also the safety clearances would be different. So if the pins are bent it might be a good idea to tighten up the escape wheel and fork end-shakes.

[Nucejoe]

Just now, JohnR725 said:

I'm not sure that we want a really see the pictures but there are a few pictures in another discussion found at the link below. 

Should have asked how bent were the banking pins, 

  by 5degrees?       70 degrees?

We tend to think pins only bend a few degrees and for adjustment purpose, however , I can't blame Op for attempting to streighten if the pin was bent by 60degrees, as a result of tool slipping.

Furthermore was trying to advertise taking pix.

In general a bent pin is better than a missing pin.

Rgds

11 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Funny thing, well funny to me- the first fork I made 

Did you mean fork arbour? 

How are forks made?   

Forged? 

Machines from scratch?

Thanks in advance.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Nucejoe
Correction.