Caravelle as First movement 11DP aka Citizen 0241

[durant7]

I have been reading and reading.  Videos, more reading.  Yes, I should start with an ST36 but for some reason I look at the box of watches I already have and wonder if I should buy a new movement.  I have a few of these 11DP watches and picked up a parts watch on eBay.  It runs but amplitude visually appears to be 120 degrees best and often a slow 90 degrees or less. It does run, just very slow.   I currently intend this movement to be my introduction.  They seem plentiful.  And, I would wear one proudly if I ever get it to run.  I think that is the appeal vs. a ST36.

My questions:

Photos.  I try to use my iPhone but suspect I need a magnification device to attach to it to have useful photos.  This is to memorialize the take down.  

Parts.  With all I have read and watched I don't see how people keep everything separated.   My eyes cannot see always that a screw is just a bit different.  What is a newbie to do in an effort to keep everything labeled and segregated?

I have purchased a first cut of tools and worked on getting old family quartz watches going by replacing movements.  No cleaning yet.  No demagnification yet.  a 10x loupe is the only magnification.  I think I might be aided with a 5x.  Oils, parts organizers, demagnification tools and a 5x loupe.  And a decent 4040 movement holder which was out of stock and the cheap one is junk!  

Movement ok?  
Best method of image capture?
Storing parts, screws?
More loupe options?   
What am I missing?  

Edited June 8, 2024 by durant7
typo

[RichardHarris123]

11DP?

[durant7]

Yes, I confirmed.  Similar to this post.  Mine is an N2 or 1972.  In a lower plate there is a 0241 stampled which confirms it is a Japanese Citizen movement.  I believe they are common.  I also see they are called a Citizen Homer.  Perhaps I am using the wrong code to describe the movement.  Perhaps I should add Bulova/Caravelle/Citizen.  Bulova's lower price point Caravelle with a low price point 7J 11DP movement.  Of little to no value but my watch maker said get a manual wind, no date complication.  SIMPLE.  

[Mercurial]

Whilst you could go ahead and use the 11DP movement, the ST36 has the advantage of being larger and therefore easier to work on. It will also be running quite well when it arrives, so you know any decrease in performance after you’ve serviced it is down to you. 

If you do a great job servicing it, the ST36 will be running even better than it did initially. 

If the 11DP doesn’t run well after you service it, it’s hard for a beginner to know if this is due to issues with the movement or their technique. 

The iPhone I have (iPhone 13) is more than adequate to capture clear, detailed images of watch parts and would be fine for keeping a visual record of the disassembly.

If your iPhone is not up to the task, consider looking at the cheaper digital microscopes from China. They have an LCD screen to show the field of view and can capture still images and some capture video too. 

There is a slight lag between the workpiece and the image on the screen, which makes them unsuitable as a microscope to work through, but for inspection purposes and capturing step by step images of the disassembly they will work well. 

In terms of keeping parts and screws sorted, I suggest a plastic storage box with lots of small compartments. Some fishing tackle boxes would be suitable.

Once you’ve removed for example the balance cock, put the screw that held it down into the neighboring compartment. 

For the other bridges and cocks, put each in a separate compartment along with the screws that belong with it. I suggested a separate compartment for the balance cock screw because you want to keep all loose parts away from the hairspring. 

Put the ratchet wheel and its screw in a compartment, the crown wheel and screw in another compartment and so on. Pallet fork cock/bridge and screw(s) in another compartment etc.

You can even put a bit of paper with a description of the part into each compartment. You can also write on the compartment or lid with a marker and (usually) remove the writing afterwards with an alcohol swab.

As you gain experience you’ll find you get more comfortable grouping more parts together in a single compartment without losing track of where they go. 

Another alternative is to make a screw holder for the movement from a disk of wood or metal. You need one for each side of the movement.

Sketch out the movement bridges and screw locations on the disk and drill a small hole in each location. Place each screw into its corresponding hole as you remove it from the movement. These screw holders were sold by watch material houses in the past and do turn up on eBay from time to time. 

Until you are ready to make the step up to a stereomicroscope, should you eventually choose to, a 5x, 10x and 20x loupe should be enough. 

Good lighting is also very important. 

Hope that helps,

Mark
 

[Geotex]

20 hours ago, durant7 said:

What is a newbie to do in an effort to keep everything labeled and segregated?

There was a thread recently here on WRT (April or early May?) with ideas to keep the various parts sorted, so you may want to search for that. As mentioned above, with experience you will begin to notice the different traits of various screws as they relate to their function and it'll be easier to sort out, especially if you practice with a particular movement or movement family. I use a divided watch parts tray with lid when I'm working on something new to me. Each subsection of the movement is taken apart and the related bridges, springs and screws are placed together. I can then take a photograph before removing the large parts for cleaning. By referring to the picture you can easily reunite the parts during assembly after performing any needed manual cleaning of the screws and springs. 

[RichardHarris123]

9 minutes ago, Geotex said:

There was a thread recently here on WRT (April or early May?) with ideas to keep the various parts sorted, so you may want to search for that. As mentioned above, with experience you will begin to notice the different traits of various screws as they relate to their function and it'll be easier to sort out, especially if you practice with a particular movement or movement family. I use a divided watch parts tray with lid when I'm working on something new to me. Each subsection of the movement is taken apart and the related bridges, springs and screws are placed together. I can then take a photograph before removing the large parts for cleaning. By referring to the picture you can easily reunite the parts during assembly after performing any needed manual cleaning of the screws and springs. 

I did the same, even cleaning the parts individually, very time consuming, but it works.  Eventually you won't need too, you will recognise the difference. 

[ManSkirtBrew]

20 hours ago, durant7 said:

I should start with an ST36 but for some reason I look at the box of watches I already have and wonder if I should buy a new movement.  I have a few of these 11DP watches and picked up a parts watch on eBay.

I totally agree with @Mercurial's points on starting with a known-running watch, and the ST36 being larger and easier to service.

That said, my first repair was an Elgin 345, which taught me an awful lot about non-interchangeable parts. My next one was a very similar Caravelle, and I have to say I really love those Bulova movements and have done many since. They are very nice to work on, and as you noted parts are readily available.

20 hours ago, durant7 said:

Photos.  I try to use my iPhone but suspect I need a magnification device to attach to it to have useful photos. 

For the most part you can get away with the phone camera's zoom, especially for assembly/disassembly pictures. One piece of hard-learned advice: take more than you think you need.

20 hours ago, durant7 said:

Parts.  With all I have read and watched I don't see how people keep everything separated

Unless I know for a fact that screws are the same, I keep them segregated with the parts they were holding on. Right up until I bump my parts tray and mix them all up, at least.

You can see here how the automatic works are in one compartment, the train bridge in another, keyless works in another. I like to keep the balance and pallet fork in the center with their associated screws--I clean them separately and want to make sure they're kept safely away from other parts.

I heard a great phrase on someone's Youtube video that stuck with me: "good screw discipline."

Yes, definitely a 4x or 5x loupe. With a 10x you get much shorter working distance (you have to be around 1" from the work) and shallower depth of field.

I know it's a little spendy, but a stereo microscope is hands-down the best purchase I've made. Honestly if I had only loupes to work with I might not have stuck with the hobby. It's such a pleasure for my rapidly aging eyes and back. I've even figured out how to tilt it so I can use it to install hands and work with my staking set. Having both eyes also helps with depth perception.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

 

[durant7]

Thank you all for your input.  I will pump the brakes on the Caravelle 11DP.  I have a $40 ST36.  So many different Amazon sources.  Another Esslinger order.  Loupes, parts organizer, demagnatiser, oils.  I have to make that decision.

Tools, tools, tools.  And all I have managed is a transplant of a quartz movement.  Hands are tricky!  

How to determine if a watch runs well.  Seems like a timegrapher is sooner than I thought.  The more I think about it, if the goal is to based line the ST36, take apart and put back together and assess your work, you have to have one of these tools?  The iPhone/Android based apps seem to get poor ratings.

[ManSkirtBrew]

5 hours ago, durant7 said:

How to determine if a watch runs well.  Seems like a timegrapher is sooner than I thought.  The more I think about it, if the goal is to based line the ST36, take apart and put back together and assess your work, you have to have one of these tools?  The iPhone/Android based apps seem to get poor ratings.

I started out using the Watch Accuracy Meter app on Android, and found it surprisingly accurate. It doesn't give you amplitude, though.

Now I use my PC with one of these USB pickups that you can get all over eBay and Aliexpress:

My go-to app is Watch-o-Scope, but I also have PCTM, TG Timegrapher, and Tuning Fork Watch Timer for my Accutron obsession.

As a hobbyist, I like the flexibility of the apps over a dedicated machine. I also like having it on the resolution of my screen instead of a little LCD panel.

[ScrewDropper]

On 6/9/2024 at 8:20 PM, ManSkirtBrew said:

I totally agree with @Mercurial's points on starting with a known-running watch, and the ST36 being larger and easier to service.

That said, my first repair was an Elgin 345, which taught me an awful lot about non-interchangeable parts. My next one was a very similar Caravelle, and I have to say I really love those Bulova movements and have done many since. They are very nice to work on, and as you noted parts are readily available.

For the most part you can get away with the phone camera's zoom, especially for assembly/disassembly pictures. One piece of hard-learned advice: take more than you think you need.

Unless I know for a fact that screws are the same, I keep them segregated with the parts they were holding on. Right up until I bump my parts tray and mix them all up, at least.

You can see here how the automatic works are in one compartment, the train bridge in another, keyless works in another. I like to keep the balance and pallet fork in the center with their associated screws--I clean them separately and want to make sure they're kept safely away from other parts.

I heard a great phrase on someone's Youtube video that stuck with me: "good screw discipline."

Yes, definitely a 4x or 5x loupe. With a 10x you get much shorter working distance (you have to be around 1" from the work) and shallower depth of field.

I know it's a little spendy, but a stereo microscope is hands-down the best purchase I've made. Honestly if I had only loupes to work with I might not have stuck with the hobby. It's such a pleasure for my rapidly aging eyes and back. I've even figured out how to tilt it so I can use it to install hands and work with my staking set. Having both eyes also helps with depth perception.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

 

+1 for a stereo microscope. I’ve got one with a boom arm so you don’t have the base plate in the way. I always have it tilted so you get a better feel for height. I found I couldn’t work out how close my tools were to the movement with the microscope lense pointing straight down. I do tilt it straight for hairspring adjustments though as it’s important to see the spacing in the spring and where it needs to be adjusted 

[durant7]

I wish to express my appreciation for guiding me in the pursuit of watch service.  I am following the guidance and have ordered a ST36 on Amazon.  Plus, a Timegrapher.  I figure there is really no way to measure your results without one.  A new parts organizer.  My phone camera will have to work for now.  A stereo microscope is WAY out into the future.  But I do hanker for a Linkmicro.  But the accountant would likely raise a hand on that expenditure.  I think a demagnetizer and lube is next.

Parts.  My 11DP has the below part which is broken at the red X.  I am watching eBay for a suitable donor.  Is there a better method to find replacement parts?  Given this is my first effort as a watchbreaker, having an entire watch is likely not a bad idea.

My first use of the Timegrapher.  Rolex 1520 movement from 1985 which is my daily.  Serviced once by Rolex.  Likely a mistake as they replaced the crystal and...well...it is not the same.  It has always been fast since 3/2010 when serviced in NYC.  Now I know for sure.

Edited June 21, 2024 by durant7
typo

[AndyGSi]

I think this is what you're looking for.

https://www.spareparts-watches.com/product/4006372/077-05-setting-lever-spring-citizen-for-caliber-0200-17-0200-19-0200-21-0201-17-0201-19-0201-19-0270-07-0270-17-0271-07-0272-07-0272-17-0911-21-0911-22-0912-21-0920-22-0930-2-0950-21-0951-21-1800-17-1800-19-1800-21-1801-17-1801-19

[durant7]

Thank you AndyGSi.  I was not sure of the exact name of this watch piece.  

Watchweasol's post with a pdf of all watch parts is an excellent source but the image below still left me unclear as to how to describe my broken part.  Setting Lever Spring.  Seems to me this Casio design combines the setting lever and spring into one?  

Net lesson, just find a parts watch with this common low value movement.

[tomh207]

The setting lever is separate from the setting lever spring, what this diagram calls the cover plate is also the setting lever spring 

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

Yes for Bulova 11DP and Citizen 0241 it's called the Setting Lever Spring, Part No. 077-05

I suppose postage from spareparts-watches.com to the states makes it not viable.

[Terrinecold]

I have also seen it called setting lever jumper.

This thread and all advices are interesting for me too as I am just a tiny bit ahead of you in this (maybe a couple of weeks and I have learned to take apart and reassemble the ST36, now working on the lubrication).

Tools, tools, tools, I feel you.  In particular when there are a lot of recommendation for not cheaping out too much.  At least for where I am and considering the number of tools I have tried to stick to chinese tools but not the cheapest.  I am quite happy with the set of screw drivers I have and the tweezers.  The movement holders are crap but I modified them a bit and they do the job.

I have made the jump to a stereo microscope after trying to use a magnifying visors (I have glasses I couldn't figure out how to make loupe work) and breaking multiple parts (well 2 but one was the hairspring) during my first disassembly of an S36.

It is not a cheap purchase but it was really worth it.

Another place where I have cheaped out as of now is the lubrication.  I have bought some Moebius 8000 and Molykote dx .  I figured I'll buy the correct lubricant once I manage to correctly use what I have (also trying to spread the hobby spending a bit).

[durant7]

I again want to thank forum members for encouragement and support.  Although a pitiful beginning, it is just that, a beginning.  The ST36 seems to still be in transit.  I had started to take my DP11 apart to understand things which included the broken setting lever spring.  Of course when you turn the watch over all sorts of keyless works parts fall to the table.  Started some embarrasing lessons of how parts get stuck to your arms, hands and other stupid mistakes. - Today I did a full clean of my area and FOUND the large half and the small broken off portion of the setting lever spring.  I fiddled with my first spring to get everything back together and it can now be "dial down" on the timegrapher for the first time.   It does run, just not well.  

The two screen are same watch 5 minutes apart without any human interaction.  I guess the positive news, it does run.  Just all over the map.  

 

[JohnR725]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:56 AM, durant7 said:

How to determine if a watch runs well.  Seems like a timegrapher is sooner than I thought.  The more I think about it, if the goal is to based line the ST36, take apart and put back together and assess your work, you have to have one of these tools?  The iPhone/Android based apps seem to get poor ratings.

watch repair is all about practice. Like for instance take your practice movement apart put it back together don't worry about cleaning or lubricating not yet. Just for the fun of it put it back on the timing machine is it still running out as a luck? Taken apart put it back together you'd need lots and lots and lots of practice it's good to practice on something that's disposable. It's also good the practice on something that is running because of give you timing machine experience. Then you can get experience when mysteriously it quits running because sometimes practice timepieces do that. This is where if you wife kids.cats you could blame them. Or maybe are timing machines defective somehow just in case it doesn't run ever again not saying that's what happened but just in case

the problem isn't necessarily with the apps themselves a lot of the problem is the pickup. We hear the watch ticking as an audio sound a lot of the apps pick up the audio and that's not the best way to do it. Traditional watch timing machines have a sensor that picks up the vibration.

On 6/10/2024 at 6:38 AM, ManSkirtBrew said:

Now I use my PC with one of these USB pickups that you can get all over eBay and Aliexpress:

for instance the pickup image above does work with some of the phone apps. Although you typically have to get the adapter so you can plug it in.

 

1 hour ago, durant7 said:

I fiddled with my first spring to get everything back together and it can now be "dial down" on the timegrapher for the first time.   It does run, just not well.  

The two screen are same watch 5 minutes apart without any human interaction.  I guess the positive news, it does run.  Just all over the map.  

you need to develop a timing procedure/ In other words you wind the watch up and wait at least 15 minutes up to one hour is considered fully wound up. then in watch repair think of it as diagnostics not regulation at least initially. In other words you put the watch on the timing machine look at it dial down, dial up and a crown down at the minimum. Dial up and down should be basically identical in one of the crown positions you typically lose amplitude but it's a good diagnostics because a lot of times people only look at their watch in one position and then they wonder why it has problems when it doesn't run on the wrist. Oh and then typically the only regulate or check the regulation one position then they ponder why they're having timing issues.

Then ideally you want to wait 24 hours and reevaluate your watch to see how it's doing.

Then your timing machine results are really interesting?

1 hour ago, durant7 said:

he two screen are same watch 5 minutes apart without any human interaction.  I guess the positive news, it does run.  Just all over the map

are the images the two extremes that you see or what has the second screen looks better but the amplitude is too low especially if it's wound up. Typically at the end of 24 hours in one of the crown positions you should have at least 200°.

On 6/21/2024 at 1:26 PM, durant7 said:

My first use of the Timegrapher.  Rolex 1520 movement from 1985 which is my daily.  Serviced once by Rolex.  Likely a mistake as they replaced the crystal and...well...it is not the same.  It has always been fast since 3/2010 when serviced in NYC.  Now I know for sure.

then serviced in 2010 and now it's 2024 which is 14 years ago. Just as reminder if this is your daily watch at some point in time the gaskets will disintegrate water will slowly seep in and the cost of the repair will become very expensive.

Then timing Rolex as a procedure? So in other words they do not put her on timing machine like you just did in time it in one position they follow a procedure. The procedure is the time the watch in five positions fully wound up and as I said they wait a little bit for the settled down then they time and again 24 hours later and they look for the maximum difference between those had that number can be up to 25 for your watch. Then the second procedure is to time the watch and all five positions fully wound up and average those together in other words all those numbers divided by five as they typically don't check and six positions because they don't have to and that number is supposed to be between -1 all the way up to +6 seconds. So yes conceivably you can check the watch in one position and it will exceed that because you're supposed to be doing an average.

Then a big disappointment for this group would be the maximum amplitude that your watch is supposed to have either dial up or dial down is 280° which is sad because for this group the minimum amplitude any watch should be should be at least 300° on the other hand those people don't care if the watch keeps time they are only concerned about the amplitude.

then at 24 hours the minimum amplitude is 200° in any of the crown positions. This is a real good way to tell how your watches doing is to lead wind down for 24 hours and see what it's doing because initially watches wound up tight can look pretty good at the very beginning but 24 hours later that may be another issue

 

[durant7]

John, a lot to unpack.

First, let's write off the Air-King Timegrapher info.  I was like a kid on Christmas with his new toy. Noted on need for a second service.  In truth, I wear it less as I play with my restored junk watches which started with Seiko Quartz and movement swaps.  As dull as it may sound, old Quartz watches keep time well.  

Timegrapher as a diagnostic tool.  Noted.  I have a log now of my 11DP.  First, I am working on patience as I await my ST36 for practice.  The 11DP is small.  As much as I want to start its tear down to clean, I am waiting for the ST36.  Lacking patience I had taken the crown out and also the lever setting spring which had broken.  As I flipped the watch over all the keyless works fell out.  Rookie!  Finding and putting all that back together was a fun test.  I succeeded and sinned by putting a drop of Kroil on the balance wheel pivot.  I know, wrong stuff!  It is a $20 eBay watch that needs a clean so I figure adding the wrong stuff was not irreversible. 

Dial Down all night last night and still running after a full wind.
15 minutes after full wind and dial down move:
rate +40, Amp 161, BE 1.2  8 hours later, +45, 176, 1.2.

Dial Up.  Watch stops.  Yesterday and today.  Return to dial down and I must help the balance and have a snow storm for some time. 

My newb thoughts are:  Typical results of a watch from '70s that has never been serviced?  Or, does the complete stop of balance when dial up suggest internal damage like a bent pivot? 

Alas I wait for my ST36.

 

[ScrewDropper]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:15 PM, durant7 said:

Movement ok?  
Best method of image capture?
Storing parts, screws?
More loupe options?   
What am I missing?  

ST movements are ideal for learning. When you are ready to progress try and stick to ETA. and AS movements with a 15-17 jewel count. Seconda movements mimic Swiss movements and you can pick them up dirt cheap. These will give you a good grounding when you want to try your hand at fixing something broken. Rold Rotary watches (pre-80s manual and autos) often have decent movements in them and you can get them at a reasonable price.
I still use a phone. If you thought a stereoscope is out of the question, wait until you enter the lion's den that is macro photography. Be very careful, there is a LOT of rubbish out there.
I use those blue coloured, round dishes with a clear lid. They work pretty well. Invest in some membrane boxes for hands and the round containers with a support for dials.. They are not expensive and you only need a couple
If you're not ready for a stereoscope, I use a x5,x10,x20. My goto is the x10, mainly for lathe work and regulator adjustment. I use the x5 for lathe work on larger items and the x20 mainly for balance inspection when the balance is installed. (i.e. if you want to check if the spring is flat and it's movement between the regulator pins)
Lots and lots. My main point would be not to scrimp on screwdrivers and tweezers. You use them all the time but there are many things you'l begin to accumulate on the way

Last tip - Stay away from Seiko for now. Most online are Frankenwatches, in a terrible mess. The shock springs are just about the hardest to install and remove. Get an old 21+ jewel Seiko movement and practice removing and inserting the jewels, setting and springs. Keep doing this until you are comfortable. Keep going back and practicing. I use size 5 tweezers a home made probe (1mm hole drilled in peg wood with a sewing needle  bonded into the hole and shaped on a stone) along with a "jewel picker upper" a stick with gel on the end. Ideal for removing the jewel and setting without pinging them into orbit. You can buy a jewel picker upper for a few quid on Amazon / eBay / Cousins

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

23 hours ago, ScrewDropper said:

a "jewel picker upper"

I have these and like them, but I've also noticed they stop being sticky pretty quickly. Have you had any luck cleaning/refreshing them, or do you just buy a lot?

[AndyGSi]

For picking anything small like jewels I just use rodico.

[durant7]

Sea-Gull has landed.  Runs even better DU.  +13s/d, 324 amp, 0.1ms BE.  Crazy.  And the goal is for a newb to improve on that?   I get it.  Take apart, put back together, test and repeat.  Certainly larger than the 11DP.

Tools.  Quality Horotech .60 to 1.4mm, Dumont #5A, Dumont #A.  The later is stainless but has become magnetized.  I have not purchased a $12 blue box to solve that.  4040 holder.  Full set of Loupes now in hand.  Two part sorting boxes.  Bergeron hand pushers..I can see I need more sizes. Pithwood, pegwood, rodico, 9010 mobius, junky oilers.  I will use iPhone for helping me get it back together.  That is the current tool list.  No dial holders yet.  No work cushion.  Cleaning...no plan yet, no US.  What I read, ST36 just take apart and put together, skip cleaning.  If my watch passion continues...one needs time. 

Ok.  

On 6/25/2024 at 10:24 AM, ScrewDropper said:

ST movements are ideal for learning. When you are ready to progress try and stick to ETA. and AS movements with a 15-17 jewel count. Seconda movements mimic Swiss movements and you can pick them up dirt cheap. These will give you a good grounding when you want to try your hand at fixing something broken. Rold Rotary watches (pre-80s manual and autos) often have decent movements in them and you can get them at a reasonable price.

A. Schild, an ebauche that is disguised by brand names.  Read, I am not able to pick them out of eBay posting yet.  Perhaps my novice status.  I will read up.

Seconda. New to me.   Rold Rotary.  Or Old?  Noted, Seiko's are well picked over.  Are you politely suggesting don't mess with Citizen made Caravelles?  There are better learning platforms?

A parts Caravelle (0241) arrived today with water, some rust on keyless works, very stuck crown, it is out of case and running!  Dial likely toast.  But the lever setting spring is NOT broken or rusty.  It is a 17J version not 7J.  The crystals are different size, the spacer ring the same, movement the same.  More to explore, it just arrived today.  Are all 0241 parts interchangeable?  Just put this 17J in my 7J case/dial and no worries?  Somehow I doubt it could be that easy.  ST36 first!  I know.

[RichardHarris123]

The idea with the Seagull is dismantle, reassemble, does it still work?  Disassemble, reassemble, lubricate, does it run better.  Both are a learning curve. 

Edited June 27, 2024 by RichardHarris123

[Knebo]

25 minutes ago, durant7 said:

Sea-Gull has landed.  Runs even better DU.  +13s/d, 324 amp, 0.1ms BE. 

I think you need to set the lift angle to 44°. Amplitude will read quite a bit lower, but still good.