Caravelle as First movement 11DP aka Citizen 0241

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, durant7 said:

And the goal is for a newb to improve on that?   I get it.

No definitely not. It will establish what it's doing now and see how long that will last. Initially only one of practice disassembling and reassembling not worrying about cleaning oiling or any of that until you get your hand eye coordination really good which this really isn't enough practicing to do that but it's better than the typical no practicing that others like to do

oh and thinking of specifications this watch is supposed to be equivalent to the Swiss ETA 6497 – 2 for which we have timing specifications and procedures to follow plus a?

So for instance if it is actually a copy or clone of a need to change the timing machine settings to this

If your left angle is off that's what would cause the abnormally high amplitude you're seeing that might be making happy but that's out of specifications.

Notice your amplitude is too high probably because the lift angle is wrong

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 6/22/2024 at 4:30 PM, durant7 said:

Thank you AndyGSi.  I was not sure of the exact name of this watch piece.  

Watchweasol's post with a pdf of all watch parts is an excellent source but the image below still left me unclear as to how to describe my broken part.  Setting Lever Spring.  Seems to me this Casio design combines the setting lever and spring into one?  

Net lesson, just find a parts watch with this common low value movement.

Different folk use different names for parts, most often the part's function, and sometimes to describe what it resembles regardless of it's function ie .castle wheel, anchor. I particularly like all the old traditional names, they seem much simpler yet more descriptive. This one is also sometimes referred to as a set bridge with jumper spring.  Setting parts bridge cover with integrated spring. Personally i think Its a good idea to learn all the variations inc. foreign names, French and German especially since parts and tech sheets are often Swiss.

[durant7]

Updated TG to 44 degrees lift angle and snapped a quick photo before heading to work.  

ST36 seems to be running fine. Second box from Esslinger. I am in US and Cousins is not a thing here.  New range of loupes, 9010 for some future date and the accountant sees nothing. A demag unit to demagnetize my Dumont Stainless #A tweezers. Argh!  I guess if it does not day Antimagnetic Dumont, a SS Dumon can still become magnetized.  Finding the tiny broken part off my Caravelle Spring Lever and the need to pluck it off my magnet with tweezers...lesson learned.  Don't use tweezers you plan to use on the watch bench near a magent! Many lessons learned on small part finding.  Happily the part was not needed but I decided no part, broken or whole, should go unaccounted.

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, durant7 said:

I am in US and Cousins is not a thing here

I suppose it depends on who you ask in the US? A while back somebody was pointing out to me that the best place in the universe to buy mainsprings was from cousins versus anywhere else including eBay. On the other hand eBay you can usually get your patient original mainsprings like for pocket watches and cousins will have aftermarket. But there are a lot of people in the US to cousins is a number one source to get things from.

Can I get a better picture of how your holding the movement of the timing machine movement holder? Something doesn't look right

[GuyMontag]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:13 AM, ManSkirtBrew said:

I have these and like them, but I've also noticed they stop being sticky pretty quickly. Have you had any luck cleaning/refreshing them, or do you just buy a lot?

I have one and really like it. I clean it in warm soapy water and dry with a lint free rag which makes it good as new again.

[Mercurial]

On 6/28/2024 at 4:23 AM, durant7 said:

Sea-Gull has landed.  Runs even better DU.  +13s/d, 324 amp, 0.1ms BE.  Crazy.  And the goal is for a newb to improve on that?   I get it.  Take apart, put back together, test and repeat. 

Until you have a means of cleaning the parts of the disassembled movement and the right lubricants to lubricate it, focus on disassembling it and reassembling it and having it run. 

You can also practice particular tasks, like placing the wheels of the train (centre wheel, third wheel, fourth wheel and escape wheel), placing the bridges and getting all the pivots in their respect jewel holes. 

You can practice installing the balance cock & balance wheel onto the mainplate, with the pivots in their jewel holes. 

Once you have an ultrasonic cleaner and cleaning fluids, or means to clean the parts by hand, you can practice disassembly, cleaning, reassembly and lubrication, with the ultimate goal of it running better than when it first arrived.

Once you’re oiling is on point (right amount of the right oils in the right places). these movements will run better than when they were delivered to you and it’s really satisfying to achieve that.

In terms of having the right lubricants, at a minimum I suggest you need 9010 for the balance and fast moving pivots, HP1300 for the slower turning wheels, arbours, mainspring and keyless works.

Then you need something to oil the pallet fork jewels (the entry and exit stones, not the pivots).

I suggest that you buy some Moebius 9415 for this. You can use 941 on these slower beat movements, but you’ll need 9415 once you want to service a faster beat movements (28,800 and up). 

You can use 9415 on all Swiss lever escapements, regardless of beat rate. If you buy this you’re covered for high beat and slower beat watches.

As you progress you may decide to use a wider variety of greases and oils, each better suited to their specific use, such as specific greases for keyless works and braking grease for automatic mainspring barrels, but 9010, HP1300 and some 9415 is sufficient to reach the goal of having this ST36 run better than when it arrived. 
 

If your $12 blue box demagnetiser didn’t come with instructions, be sure to find out how to use it properly, or you might end up magnetising instead of demagnetising things. There are plenty of demonstration videos for these on YouTube.

Hope this helps,

Mark

[durant7]

On 6/28/2024 at 7:13 AM, JohnR725 said:

Can I get a better picture of how your holding the movement of the timing machine movement holder? Something doesn't look right

JohnR725, It sounds like I am about to be educated.  The ST36 came with a sub second hand as well as a minute hand.  No hour hand.  I put it in dial up with a small space to ensure nothing comes in contact with the microphone holder.  If this is poor form, let me know.

Impressive that folks order from Cousins when in the USA.  Must have good service, selection and quality.  I think I need to start practicing.  I stand at the threshold.

Mercurial (Mark).  Thank you for taking the time to provide a personal response to my journey.  It was very helpful.  As mentioned above, I have all the tools, organizers, parts sorters, range of magnification and even some 9010 for some future date.  The ST36 sits in front of me.  My tools in front of me.  And work, month end, quarter end and a non US customer advising me today, Sunday, he will be flying in from India for his first DC visit on July 3rd!  Laugh or cry I am not sure.  Flying home on the 3rd is not my idea of fun!  My holiday was going to be my ST36 disassembly and reassembly.  Odd vacation huh?  Read I want to walk over the threshold but I don't want to be distracted.  Something only I can figure out.  I don't want to try to put it back together 30 days later...so it sits ticking.  Time, ironic huh.

Blue box out of box, no directions.  My magnetized Dumonts ready.  How can Stainless Dumonts get magnetized?  My other spendy pair of Dumonts say "Anti-magnetic" so...well...learning.  Even Cheap Dumonts have their limitations.  I will do some more research on best way to maximize the "hobbyist demagnetizer".  Until I do, I have only one pair of tweezers.  

My one question is, I have not heard of HP1300.  Or, as a novice I have missed it.  I did buy 9010 as it seemed a no brainer.  At some point in my journey 9010 is a must have.  HP1300 was not on my #2 list.  Did I just miss that?  I thought some grease for Keyless works and metal on metal rubbing was next.  And by "fast moving" pivots. An area I need to better understand.  Fast Moving could be subjective.  Is there a rule of thumb? 1 revolution per minute of less is slow? 1 RPM or more is considered "fast moving"?  It would appear on video 9010 is on all pivots up to the hour wheel which I would not consider "fast moving".  Again, novice so I may not have realized what I was hearing/seeing.

[JohnR725]

12 minutes ago, durant7 said:

JohnR725, It sounds like I am about to be educated.  The ST36 came with a sub second hand as well as a minute hand.  No hour hand.  I put it in dial up with a small space to ensure nothing comes in contact with the microphone holder.  If this is poor form, let me know.

I find a lot of people are clueless over how to hold things in the timing machine  microphone. Then when the Chinese clone their timing machine microphone they didn't do quite as nice job as the Swiss did for instance here's a comparison between us witschi microphone and your timing machine.

Even though it isn't quite as nice it still work so here's an example in a microphone just like yours of how you're supposed to hold the movements if you would like to Be able to move the regulator as it's going to a little difficult the way you're doing it

Then occasionally see people holding a watch in the movement holder then put a timing machine the problem is the watch really has to make contact with the outer metal part as that's where the sensor is.

1 hour ago, durant7 said:

maximize the "hobbyist demagnetizer".

It's been covered somewhere else in the group As you're not the first asked the question how to properly use it.

But yes if you use a wrong you'll magnetize everything

1 hour ago, durant7 said:

I have not heard of HP1300.  Or, as a novice I have missed it.  I did buy 9010 as it seemed a no brainer.  At some point in my journey 9010 is a must have.  HP1300 was not on my #2 list.  Did I just miss that?  I thought some grease for Keyless works and metal on metal rubbing was next

The world of lubrication and continuous bickering. I like 9010 no-brainer I guess I don't have a brain because I don't use 9010. Then you don't need the HP 1300 if you're using it on the keyless as you can use grease. Because technically if you're going to use it on the keyless you need the epilam to keep It from spreading all across the universe.

[Mercurial]

Sorry to hear that work is getting in the way at the moment. 

HP1300 is also known as Moebius 9104. 

The HP in HP1300 stands for high pressure. It is designed to stay between bearing surfaces even under high loads, where less viscous, thinner lubricants would be displaced. 

Esslinger.com describes it as follows : “Commonly used on almost all posts and setting components, and used to lubricate many of the jewels in the gear train. The Synt HP1300 can also be used for the gear train (wheels), barrel-arbor, and steel on steel in most mechanical watches.”

If all you have is 9010 and 1300, then I would treat the balance wheel, escape wheel and the fourth wheel as the faster moving pivots. Use 1300 on the remainder and 9415 on the pallet stones.

I’m suggesting a way to get good performance with a minimum of products, what I described above is easily good enough for watch lubrication whilst learning on movements like the ST36.

Lubricants and lubrication of watches is a topic where a diverse range of opinions exist, there isn’t always just one right answer and discussion often ends up in unpleasant arguements. I hesitated to get into it above for this reason.

As you progress and want to move towards what a professional would use, I suggest you read the document on watch and clock oiling I’ve attached, from the British Horological Institute.

They set out what products to use and where to use them depending upon the size of the movement you’re working on. They also explain which products can be used as substitutes for other products.

If you are guided by this document, you won’t go far wrong.

Edit to add : As for your stainless tweezers getting magnetised, not all stainless steel is non-magnetic.

If you look on YouTube for videos on demagnetising watches, you’ll see how to use your unit. Watch tool are demagnetised in the same fashion as movements.

Best Regards,

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

Edited July 1, 2024 by Mercurial
Added extra information.

[ScrewDropper]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:23 PM, durant7 said:

Seconda. New to me.   Rold Rotary.  Or Old?  Noted, Seiko's are well picked over.  Are you politely suggesting don't mess with Citizen made Caravelles?  There are better learning platforms?

A parts Caravelle (0241) arrived today with water, some rust on keyless works, very stuck crown, it is out of case and running!  Dial likely toast.  But the lever setting spring is NOT broken or rusty.  It is a 17J version not 7J.  The crystals are different size, the spacer ring the same, movement the same.  More to explore, it just arrived today.  Are all 0241 parts interchangeable?  Just put this 17J in my 7J case/dial and no worries?  Somehow I doubt it could be that easy.  ST36 first!  I know.

 

Sorry I meant OLD not Rold
 

The nice thing about Rotary (pre-80s) is a) there are a lot of them b) they are easy to find c) +17 jewel counts are usually a sign there will be either a nice ETA or AS movement inside d) parts are easy to source e) they are easy to work on.

the thing about Seconda, is unlike Seiko, they pretty much copied Swiss movements (15+ jewel movements) so it's a cheap way of getting familiar with Swiss movements and, by cheap, I mean dirt cheap. It's also easy (although not quite as straightforward) to source parts.

Seikos, as much as I love them (no, really I do) they are not easy to begin with, do not help with getting to know Swiss movements, the jewel shock springs are a **BLEEP** to work with when you are now (and continue to be more challenging than, say, Incabloc) and there are so many Frankenwatches out there that are way beyond economical repair, it's a hiding to nothing

On 6/26/2024 at 3:13 PM, ManSkirtBrew said:

I have these and like them, but I've also noticed they stop being sticky pretty quickly. Have you had any luck cleaning/refreshing them, or do you just buy a lot?

I've had one for over 6 months without a problem. The key is a) NEVER let them come in contact with ISO or other solvents b) only use them for picking up and dropping into place. Don't use them to hold the spring while rotating it with tweezers in a Seiko, for example

I had previously bought ones that failed pretty quickly but mainly due to the above. The cost seems to be irrelevant. The one I have is from Cousins but is exactly the same as one I got from eBay previously (and about the same price, approximately a fiver)

[durant7]

First, most appreciative of everyone's input.  I know it takes time, thought and interest in responding to newbs.  As in any challenging hobby, I bet only 15% of the newbs hang in their for more than 12 months.  I have been lurking for 2 years and have, today, finally taken apart and put back together my first watch.  With your guidance, I put the 11DP on the back burner.  I did get my ST36 and today it came apart and, amazingly, went back together and is now running.  No cleaning, no lubrication.  I did not mess with the balance jewels which have end cap incabloc style jewels.  Left that for  another day.  

With 44 deg lift angle she now reads

 +2s/d  274 deg  0.0ms 44.0 deg vs as shipped below 
+15s/d 286 deg 0.3ms 44.0 deg.   Losing amplitude...lubrication.  I hope this is not an indication of a greater sin.  

A few lessons.  

Take more photos.  I got crossed up on which way the click part went in.
The small screw to release the crown....screw back in after crown is removed.
The click spring escaped 2x with light tweezer pressure.  Wasted a huge amount of time and emotional despair but found it both times and ... not sure I understand how it can jump out of the tweezers so easily and what I need to do differently.
Somehow one of my screwdrivers (1.40m) became magnetized.  Cheap blue box solved it.  But what could I have done to cause that?  Odd.
Worked at a farmhouse kitchen table.  Too low.  

I suspect the advise is "repeat" and this time service the incabloc jewel capture system.  I did print off the Lubrication manifesto.  Some reading.  I can see more lube is in my future.  Resist the temptation to take the 11DPs apart until I learn more.

The 11DP.  I have two now as I needed a parts watch.  The parts watch is a 17J version of the 11DP and looks to run better than the first candidate.  They both have the Citizen 0241 stamped.  But the 17J has the below logo.  My speculation this is an early version.  Later versions lost 7 jewels and the logo.  Perhaps there is more to the story.

As for old Rotary watches.  They don't seem to be as abundant in US eBay.  The only reasonable candidate I found last night is HERE.  

[Terrinecold]

Lucky you I also just lost a click spring (for a different movement) but did t manage to find it. 
With the st36 the on part I often put back in reverse is the click spring. The two side look pretty similar but in the wrong one the click will not actually catch the end of the spring. 
 

[durant7]

Spell check!  My apologies.  Advice not Advise.  There not Their.  Sigh...

First, hunting down pinged parts.  I had way too much junk on the table.  Good lesson when I get home.  I have read the advice, clean, sterile work area.  Nothing but what you need on the table.  Neither time had they gone far but I looked afar.  I thought it went to the right but found it on the left.  And yes, I was struggling with the ST36 click spring as it looks symmetrical.  It would be hard to visually note it was asymmetrical.  All I got right was its orientation, not which way went up.  Good lesson on what to pay closer attention too. 

As for my theory on 11DP.  Seems I am wrong, found this last night.  7J with same logo. And the logic that later 11DP had fewer jewels also wrong.  The N2 had 7, N3 has 17.  To add more confusion, the 17J N3 has  T on dial while the 7J N2 has JAPAN on dial. eBay offerings, if you can't see the movement, it is a crap shoot it would seem. 

[Mercurial]

It sounds like you did very well with your first disassembly and reassembly of the ST36. The timegrapher readings you got afterwards suggest that you did a good job, too.

With the click spring flying out of the tweezers in spite of a light grip, I’m wondering what condition the tips of your tweezers are in. The Dumonts you have are great tweezers, but will need to be dressed occasionally to keep them performing well. 

There are some good YouTube videos on dressing watchmaker’s tweezers and they will do a much better job than I can with words alone. Kalle Slaap’s channel, Chronoglide has one such video. 

A clean and tidy work area is very important, you might be surprised how much a speck of dust or tiny fibre can interfere with the running of a watch, and of course lost parts are much easier to find if they have nowhere to hide.

You will have parts fly off, especially whilst you’re learning, and a strong magnetic sweeper to find lost steel parts can save you a lot of time.

A UV flashlight (preferably around 350nm wavelength) is great for finding jewels that escape, modern synthetic rubies as found in the vast majority of watches glow brightly under UV. 

It’s worth practicing just the disassembly and reassembly until you feel very comfortable with it.

Once you have suitable lubricants, and a way to clean watch parts, then you can add cleaning and lubrication to the disassembly and reassembly.

Learning how to gather the desired amount of oil on the oiler and learning how much oil to use for each pivot isn’t as easy as it might look and it is worth putting in the practice to get good at it.

The longevity of a service depends heavily upon good oiling.

You mentioned that the table you worked on was lower than the ideal height. Working at an optimal height makes a big difference.

Whilst a new table or proper watchmaker’s work bench is a big investment, you may be able to improvise or build something that resembles the Horotec “mini bench”, which is a small raised work platform that goes on top of an existing table.

I look forward to seeing your progress, you’re off to a great start. 

Best Regards,

Mark

[durant7]

Another eBay parts Caravelle arrived Friday.  I am still hoping to get a parts watch I feel good about parting out to get my "setting lever spring".  I pulled it apart to find I have a $14 Swiss AS 1686 movement.  Argh and yay at the same time.  I removed the junky metal band so it can do no more damage.  Wound it up and let it sit for a day.  With little expectation on this parts watch, I was surprised to find it still running in the morning.  Unpacked the TG and put it on correctly.  

DU -57 s/d | 201 amp | 0.2 BE |52 deg and 18,000 which is correct for a 1686 per Google.

So, took it out of the case with the small screw I learned about on the ST36.  Started playing with the regulator to speed it up. Not silky smooth.  But three attempts got me to what I call good enough.

DU +3 s/d | 227 amp | 0.1 BE. 

I was so excited I put the watch back together FORGETTING to tighten the crown locking screw.  The back was not easy the first time nor the second.  More lessons.  In truth, I did nothing to the watch but speed it up a bit.  M2 or 1962.  First service in '64, '66, '67 and '68.  Maybe it went in a drawer soon after.  I would think old lube should be an issue.

Noted on tweezer dressing.  I will look at them with the 10x and address. 
Cleaned up my work area but have many improvements needed.
I now have a AS movement in the collection for practice. Seems the 1686 was used by many brands.  Good reading on the interweb.  Impressive movement to a newb.  

I think the 11DP 7J is my next practice victim.