Part 3 of the never ending saga

[Ammar]

Hello everybody,

I have this watch that has become the bane of my existence but I'm still determined.

I have talked about this watch in previous two posts so I'm going to make this a shorter post. (https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/24867-dilemma/#comment-204116)

I found a movement with good balance complete in it or so I thought, the regulating pin part was broken so I changed the balance cock with one of the 2345423 that I already have.

the movement is clean the train of wheels runs so smooth even the slightest puff of air can make the wheels turn, the pallet fork springs back and for, the balance wheel's pivots are intact, the hair spring in a good shape.

BUT THE DARN THING DOESNT WANT TO RUN!.

the balance oscillates for like 5 seconds, sluggishly, and then stops.

I'm so mad and lost I do not know what I'm going to do know.

I'll attach a couple of photos of the balance complete but its low quality because it was late at night and I was so annoyed when I took those photo.

Anybody has any idea what's happening? 

 

[RichardHarris123]

How does the balance run without the pallet fork in place? 

[Ammar]

6 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

How does the balance run without the pallet fork in place? 

The pallet for is in place and springs back and forth when I tap it with the tip of my tweezers, I never said it's not in place.

[RichardHarris123]

I asked how freely the balance runs without the pallet in place.  Remove the pallet fork and check for freedom of movement of the balance wheel. 

[Ammar]

3 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I asked how freely the balance runs without the pallet in place.  Remove the pallet fork and check for freedom of movement of the balance wheel. 

Oh!

Sorry misunderstanding.

I don't know how this never crossed my mind, I usually do this every time before assembling the movement.

I'll try once I go home today.

[Nucejoe]

Did the balance run good with the old cock?  if not,

1-Check if the roller table rubs on fork horns, in case you can,t verify anything visually, remove the fork .

2. Check end shake on balance.

3. See if H/S rubs on balance spokes or on underside of the cock or the coil fouls itself.

Once you had the balance detached from the cock, you had a chance to check pivots for shortness  or bent or chipped pivots? You ought to check these now.

Are you sure jewels in the setting are clean & fault free?

Good luck

Edited June 13, 2024 by Nucejoe
Correction.

[eccentric59]

It could be that the cap jewels are upside down. That could easily put enough pressure on the balance pivot to stop it.

[Ammar]

Hello,

Sorry for the delayed response.

I've been trying to get watch to run for a long time but no matter what I do it just does not want to go.

I even got a working movement in a good condition but as soon as I serviced it it stopped working properly so I decided to throw out everything that reminds me of it for the sake of my own sanity.

[VWatchie]

When you have really tough setbacks, it is easy to get the feeling of wanting to give up and many times I have given up and thought that enough is enough, and I think that can be a good thing even if it sounds contradictory. Sometimes you simply have to let time pass before you are ready to try again or try something new. When the brain have calmly and subconsciously processed the problem, you automatically get the urge to make a new attempt and not infrequently it leads to success, or at least getting a little further.

You will succeed! Sooner or later! 

Edited July 8, 2024 by VWatchie

[rjenkinsgb]

On 7/8/2024 at 6:58 AM, Ammar said:

I even got a working movement in a good condition but as soon as I serviced it it stopped working properly so I decided to throw out everything that reminds me of it for the sake of my own sanity

What are you using for cleaning them?

I had problems with the first movements I rebuilt barely running; that was down to the cleaning method I used (lighter fluid then IPA).

As soon as I started using proper cleaning liquids - L&R #111 & #3 - that problem just went away. I can only guess that the old dried oils were not properly removed by the original solvents.

[Ammar]

2 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

What are you using for cleaning them?

I had problems with the first movements I rebuilt barely running; that was down to the cleaning method I used (lighter fluid then IPA).

As soon as I started using proper cleaning liquids - L&R #111 & #3 - that problem just went away. I can only guess that the old dried oils were not properly removed by the original solvents.

I'm using pharma grade 99.99% IPA, I do initial cleaning in small bowl with a brush and then I run them three cycles in the ultrasonic cleaner.

I do not usually get any problems with cleaning, I think this specific watch is just not meant to be.

[RichardHarris123]

IPA us good for a rinse but not good as a cleaner. 

[Knebo]

46 minutes ago, Ammar said:

I'm using pharma grade 99.99% IPA, I do initial cleaning in small bowl with a brush and then I run them three cycles in the ultrasonic cleaner.

I do not usually get any problems with cleaning, I think this specific watch is just not meant to be.

Are you also cleaning the balance and pallet fork with IPA? IPA will dissolve shellac (i.e. roller jewel on balance and pallets on the fork).

[Ammar]

19 hours ago, Knebo said:

Are you also cleaning the balance and pallet fork with IPA? IPA will dissolve shellac (i.e. roller jewel on balance and pallets on the fork).

I use lighter fluid for balance and pallet fork and then I rinse them in IPA.

While IPA does in fact  dissolve shellac it doesn't happen very quickly so it is safe to leave the parts in it for a few minutes.

 

20 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

IPA us good for a rinse but not good as a cleaner. 

Generally correct but I'm just a hobbyist and getting cleaning solutions here can be very expensive here this is why  I use IPA and to be honest I have never had any problems with cleaning before, I inspect the parts under my USB microscope and everything usually looks squeaky clean although I do get some congealed/dried oils sometimes that are not dissolved in the cleaning process so I reclean the part and then I'm good to go.

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Ammar,

If You need real help, You should do what @RichardHarris123 asked to do - the free oscillations test when balance is in place but the pallet fork is not, and write here the result. You must turn the balance to 180 degr. and release it to oscillate till full stop, and count the number of free oscillations. About 100 is expected when balance is OK.

It is no good idea to mix the bridges and cocks, as they are actually parts of their own main plare and are mashinned together with it. So generally it is recommended to choose the movement in which the good balance came with. You can use the original movement, but then the original balance cock is to be used. Mixing hte parts sometimes leads to problems that even for experienced watcmakers is hard to find and to solve.

[Knebo]

2 hours ago, Ammar said:

use lighter fluid for balance and pallet fork and then I rinse them in IPA.

While IPA does in fact  dissolve shellac it doesn't happen very quickly so it is safe to leave the parts in it for a few minutes.

Ok yes, that should be fine. 

Are you using fresh lighter fluid for the balance alone or are you mixing with all the other parts? 

Just a little bit of oil (dissolved from all the other parts) can remain on the hairspring and make the coils stick to each other. I suppose this may be removed by the IPA rinse, but maybe not fully. 

[rjenkinsgb]

On 7/9/2024 at 9:19 AM, Ammar said:

I'm using pharma grade 99.99% IPA, I do initial cleaning in small bowl with a brush and then I run them three cycles in the ultrasonic cleaner.

3 hours ago, Ammar said:

I use lighter fluid for balance and pallet fork and then I rinse them in IPA.

Exact same materials and exact same problems!

 

IPA is not a good degreaser or oil residue remover. Something like paraffin should work better for the initial wash.

Also, as I discovered, IPA and lighter fluid are so different they do not even mix well!

See the photo - a few drops of each in a flat plastic lid, and after a couple of minutes there is still a clear, sharp line where the two different liquids are in contact but staying separate!

Lighter fluid on the left, IPA on the right - and the contact line between them in the marked area:

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Exact same materials and exact same problems!

 

IPA is not a good degreaser or oil residue remover. Something like paraffin should work better for the initial wash.

Also, as I discovered, IPA and lighter fluid are so different they do not even mix well!

See the photo - a few drops of each in a flat plastic lid, and after a couple of minutes there is still a clear, sharp line where the two different liquids are in contact but staying separate!

Lighter fluid on the left, IPA on the right - and the contact line between them in the marked area:

 

 

When talking lighter fluid we usually mean some type of processed naptha, distilled. A petroleum based chemical that acts as a solvent. IPA also known as Indian Pale Ale is alcohol based.

[rjenkinsgb]

I was using lighter fluid only, for the main washing part, then using IPA (the 99.7% grade) as a rinse. I believe what was happening was the IPA never really mixed with the lighter fluid that coated the parts, so the crud dissolved in that was left as residue after everything evaporated.

And IPA mixes with dried oil & grease about as well as it mixes with lighter fluid.

I also know I've not had a single "sluggish movement" problem since switching cleaning solutions.

[Ammar]

22 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Ammar,

If You need real help, You should do what @RichardHarris123 asked to do - the free oscillations test when balance is in place but the pallet fork is not, and write here the result. You must turn the balance to 180 degr. and release it to oscillate till full stop, and count the number of free oscillations. About 100 is expected when balance is OK.

It is no good idea to mix the bridges and cocks, as they are actually parts of their own main plare and are mashinned together with it. So generally it is recommended to choose the movement in which the good balance came with. You can use the original movement, but then the original balance cock is to be used. Mixing hte parts sometimes leads to problems that even for experienced watcmakers is hard to find and to solve.

Hi,

I did do the oscillations test on the original movement with a couple of good balances but they are not turning smoothly, I'm starting to think that this is a weird variation on the movement because I could see subtle differences between the original movement and the other hundred movements I have.

now that I've lost track of which balance belongs to which movement and to be honest I lost interest I do not think I'll touch this watch again, not in a long time anyway.

 

21 hours ago, Knebo said:

Ok yes, that should be fine. 

Are you using fresh lighter fluid for the balance alone or are you mixing with all the other parts? 

 

I'm using fresh lighter fluid and IPA specifically for the balance, I discard the fluids and use new fluids when I clean another balance.

@rjenkinsgb I'm not saying that Lighter fluid and IPA are better than professional purpose made watch cleaning solutions I'm just saying that those fluids are giving me good results.

I never mix lighter fluid and IPA I always dry the parts on one of those usb carbon heating pads after every cycle.  

[nevenbekriev]

1 hour ago, Ammar said:

Hi,

I did do the oscillations test on the original movement with a couple of good balances but they are not turning smoothly, I'm starting to think that this is a weird variation on the movement because I could see subtle differences between the original movement and the other hundred movements I have.

This is OK, but have in mind that every time when the balance is replaced and the free oscillations test is not OK, one should not simpy conclude that the balance is not good for this movement. The good watchmaker will start investigating what is the reason, the same way if this is watch with some problem and the problem has to be diagnosed. Usually some slight adjustment is needed to bring the things to normal, but one will never know what to do if He doesn't know what is the specific reason for the specific problem. In case of balance, the usual reasons are incorrect free plays in bearings - radial and axial, balance rim rubbing on something (pallet cock, cetner wheel...), balanse arm/spokes touch the regulator or hairspring stud, the bottom of roller touches the main plate, all the hairspring caused problems... So one must put the loupe ont His eye and observe and investigate the balance behavior and all the critical points that may cause problem. There is a way to test and confirm/exclude all the possible reasons. Gaining experience and knowlages about the pivots/stones, hairspring, escapement function and behavior eases the process alot. Untill then You can ask here what to check next and You will receive good advice.

OK, leave the watch alone for some time. When You decide to start again, You can count on support here.

[rjenkinsgb]

5 hours ago, Ammar said:

I'm not saying that Lighter fluid and IPA are better than professional purpose made watch cleaning solutions I'm just saying that those fluids are giving me good results.

My point is (and I've just done more tests to verify this) - IPA does not work well as an oil or oil residue remover. It's probably not removing the dried residue from the initial wash.

 

I tried the adjacent drops test again, with 3-in-1 oil and IPA, and the two do not mingle - it gives the same very clear line where the two are in contact.

Ethanol, by comparison (denatured alcohol) flows in to the oil and dissolves it.

 

I'm not saying you should use the commercial cleaners; what I'm suggesting is stick to lighter fluid only for both initial clean and rinse, or rinse with ethanol rather than IPA. Or start with paraffin / lamp oil & rinse with lighter fluid?

The IPA probably works OK if the movement is pretty clean to start with, but if there was a lot of old oil the initial lighter fluid wash probably left a small amount of gummy residue, that the IPA never removed.

(I admit I was surprised with the effect of the change to different cleaning liquids, and now even more surprised when I tried that test with the drops and found the IPA just did not mix at all!)

 

I'm going to try other fluids such as paraffin & see how it compares to the commercial stuff, as that is far cheaper - £12 for 4L locally, or £36 for 20 litres (as Kerosene) on Amazon, compared to the dedicated watch cleaner at around £10 per litre.

 

[SwissSeiko]

If you are using the naptha and IPA method of cleaning, which can produce good results, there needs to be a rinse between the naptha and the IPA in distilled water. That will get rid of some of the problems of the naptha sitting on top of the IPA, which will coat the parts as you pull them out.

[Ammar]

18 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

My point is (and I've just done more tests to verify this) - IPA does not work well as an oil or oil residue remover. It's probably not removing the dried residue from the initial wash.

 

I tried the adjacent drops test again, with 3-in-1 oil and IPA, and the two do not mingle - it gives the same very clear line where the two are in contact.

Ethanol, by comparison (denatured alcohol) flows in to the oil and dissolves it.

 

I'm not saying you should use the commercial cleaners; what I'm suggesting is stick to lighter fluid only for both initial clean and rinse, or rinse with ethanol rather than IPA. Or start with paraffin / lamp oil & rinse with lighter fluid?

The IPA probably works OK if the movement is pretty clean to start with, but if there was a lot of old oil the initial lighter fluid wash probably left a small amount of gummy residue, that the IPA never removed.

(I admit I was surprised with the effect of the change to different cleaning liquids, and now even more surprised when I tried that test with the drops and found the IPA just did not mix at all!)

 

I'm going to try other fluids such as paraffin & see how it compares to the commercial stuff, as that is far cheaper - £12 for 4L locally, or £36 for 20 litres (as Kerosene) on Amazon, compared to the dedicated watch cleaner at around £10 per litre.

 

Well this is very interesting, I've always thought that IPA is a strong solvent not only for watchmaking.

We do have loads of Ethanol at work I'll get some and start cleaning with it instead of IPA and see the results.

16 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

If you are using the naptha and IPA method of cleaning, which can produce good results, there needs to be a rinse between the naptha and the IPA in distilled water. That will get rid of some of the problems of the naptha sitting on top of the IPA, which will coat the parts as you pull them out.

Ok I'll take this note in consideration, we have an RO water treatment unit at work so I can get as much I want.

[VWatchie]

On 7/10/2024 at 2:21 PM, nevenbekriev said:

You must turn the balance to 180 degr. and release it to oscillate till full stop, and count the number of free oscillations. About 100 is expected when balance is OK.

I always become weary when specific numbers are specified. Amplitude comes to mind. I think the time would vary quite a bit depending on an array of factors such as the weight and diameter of the balance wheel. But "about 100" seconds (I assume you don't mean oscillations) sounds in the ballpark for any common Swiss wristwatch movement. I agree.

It's absolutely mesmerizing to see the balance wheel oscillate for a hundred seconds, but what I usually do is just give the movement a light twist while in the movement holder and then study how the balance stops. If it doesn't come to a stop completely seamlessly there's something that needs attention. Any kind of abrupt stop, even when the oscillation of the balance is minimal, indicates an imperfection.

 

Edited July 12, 2024 by VWatchie