Damas GTSP pocket watch

[Nucejoe]

Just now, Alun said:

I'll have a really good look at that bottom jewell set up.

Good idea, 

Bottom jewel's oil sink appear facing the balance, if so,  I try flipping the jewel over so the sink faces end stone, the sink can then holds oil to lube endstones as well, next would be flipping the end stone, try flipping the end stone+the spring plate its fitted in as one piece, so end stones dome side faces bottom pivot,  this all lifts the staff which hopefully creates enough clearance for roller table.

Rgds

[Alun]

37 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Good idea, 

Bottom jewel's oil sink appear facing the balance, if so,  I try flipping the jewel over so the sink faces end stone, the sink can then holds oil to lube endstones as well, next would be flipping the end stone, try flipping the end stone+the spring plate its fitted in as one piece, so end stones dome side faces bottom pivot,  this all lifts the staff which hopefully creates enough clearance for roller table.

Rgds

Yes agree entirely.....under the microscope the hole jewell looks like an ordinary hole jewel instead of a conical balance jewel. I've checked the end stone and it's all the right way round.... however I could try flipping it around so the conical part faces the pivot....but first I'm going to check to see if the cap jewel is sitting flush with the bottom plate

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Alun said:

but first I'm going to check to see if the cap jewel is sitting flush with the bottom plate

So, balance jewel is set correct. Before removing the cap jewel, push on it whilst keeping an eye on roller table, see if this lifts the table any. 

 The aproach I said before, lets the dome of end stone enter oil sink of balance jewel, thus you get max lift on the pivot/ roller table.

Good luck.

 

 

Edited June 20 by Nucejoe

[Alun]

I've taken a photo of the bottom hole jewel... don't think there's much wrong here....(I'm being sarcastic)

[AndyGSi]

I've got a watch on it's way with the same movement as yours and
also a 3035 staff which should be correct if it is a Beguelin 23

[Alun]

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

I've got a watch on it's way with the same movement as yours and
also a 3035 staff which should be correct if it is a Beguelin 23

It would be interesting to compare it. 

[Nucejoe]

Photos are generally not clear enough.

The jewel hole looks  slightly damaged, in which case you might see wear on balance pivot. 

Since there is an endshake, roller table should no longer rub on mainplate      IN MAINPLATE  UP POSITION.

 

 

 

[Alun]

8 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

I've got a watch on it's way with the same movement as yours and
also a 3035 staff which should be correct if it is a Beguelin 23

Ive had a look at the BTC 23 on Emmy watch....it's a 16½ lignes movement. Mine is an 18½ lignes movement..still be interesting to see the difference though.

 

[AndyGSi]

I've got the BTC 23 shown as variable from 16 to 18 lignes (40.6mm) so does yours measure 41.7mm as the 18.5?

Edited June 21 by AndyGSi

[nevenbekriev]

See, You give too little information. I asked many things and still have no answer. So I can only guess. Speaking of this, I red once again everything in the tread and saw something, which can be interesting.  As I understand, the old staff which has broken roller side pivot (only one broken pivot) measures 402 in lenght. One broken pivot will shorten the staff by about 30, so in every case, You original staff was no longer than 440.  As the 588 staff which is long 475 fits and even there is big axial free play, this will have to mean that the balance that was in the movement actually is not original one, but just put by the previous owner in the movement to ease selling it to You. This means that the roller is not from this movement and in such case, it is no wonder that it touches the main plate.

Do You know how to check if the roller can work together with the pallet fork correctly?

[AndyGSi]

Can you post a photo of the 'damaged' balance.

Edited June 21 by AndyGSi

[AndyGSi]

Best photo I can get of the 585 balance as my microscopes at work.

 

[Alun]

On 6/21/2024 at 7:15 PM, AndyGSi said:

I've got the BTC 23 shown as variable from 16 to 18 lignes (40.6mm) so does yours measure 41.7mm as the 18.5?

It's 41.73mm

[Alun]

On 6/21/2024 at 8:45 PM, nevenbekriev said:

See, You give too little information. I asked many things and still have no answer. So I can only guess. Speaking of this, I red once again everything in the tread and saw something, which can be interesting.  As I understand, the old staff which has broken roller side pivot (only one broken pivot) measures 402 in lenght. One broken pivot will shorten the staff by about 30, so in every case, You original staff was no longer than 440.  As the 588 staff which is long 475 fits and even there is big axial free play, this will have to mean that the balance that was in the movement actually is not original one, but just put by the previous owner in the movement to ease selling it to You. This means that the roller is not from this movement and in such case, it is no wonder that it touches the main plate.

Do You know how to check if the roller can work together with the pallet fork correctly?

Hi there sorry if I wasn't clear in my replies...

Both pivots are broken on the old staff...see photo....so going by your experience it would add a further 30 so making the old staff 470 long... please note my measurements will have a tolerance of error.

I'm guessing this is about the same as the 588 staff which measures 477.

I don't know how to check the roller/pallet fork .

 

[Alun]

Hi all....

An up-date....

I've turned the bottom end cap jewel around (just flipped the setting) so that the domed face is towards the pivot and that has made a difference...see below.

I haven't yet replaced the bottom balance staff jewel hole.

I've removed the hairspring and removed the pallet fork....so I can spin the balance without anything 'getting in the way'

With the cap jewel dome facing the pivot the balance wheel spins freely.....the other way around it doesn't.

So flipping the cap jewel has lifted the balance up enough to allow the roller table to be free of the bottom plate.

There's a load of side shake because of the broken bottom hole jewel.

So ....noting the above do I now replace the bottom hole jewel with its oil well facing the cap jewel (dome up)....or facing the pivot??

 

[AndyGSi]

Just a quick correction from my post above.

Not sure why I put it as a 585 balance (maybe the effect of coming out of Covid) but it is a 3035 balance.

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, Alun said:

Hi there sorry if I wasn't clear in my replies...

Both pivots are broken on the old staff...see photo....so going by your experience it would add a further 30 so making the old staff 470 long... please note my measurements will have a tolerance of error.

I'm guessing this is about the same as the 588 staff which measures 477.

I don't know how to check the roller/pallet fork .

 

 

5 hours ago, Alun said:

Hi all....

An up-date....

I've turned the bottom end cap jewel around (just flipped the setting) so that the domed face is towards the pivot and that has made a difference...see below.

I haven't yet replaced the bottom balance staff jewel hole.

I've removed the hairspring and removed the pallet fork....so I can spin the balance without anything 'getting in the way'

With the cap jewel dome facing the pivot the balance wheel spins freely.....the other way around it doesn't.

So flipping the cap jewel has lifted the balance up enough to allow the roller table to be free of the bottom plate.

There's a load of side shake because of the broken bottom hole jewel.

So ....noting the above do I now replace the bottom hole jewel with its oil well facing the cap jewel (dome up)....or facing the pivot??

 

Hi,

OK, the things seems beter this way. So the balance may be original. It is still not clear why flipping the small plate with the cap jewel would lift the pivot. Look at the plate carefully. It may be bent so the jewel can stay away fronm the main plate. Again, put the small plate (as You call it 'setting') domed side of the jewel up on a firm flat surface and press the stone firmly with something made of hard plastic in order to ensure that the flat face of stone gets flush with the plate face and is not shifted in. It is not normally the domed surface of the stone to pop above the other surface of the plate, so flipping the plate should not lift the pivot.

Now You need to source a hole jewel. What is the size of the pivots? I guess the outside diam of the stone is 1.2, so You can probably use one from Molnija 3602 (the hole is 12 there). Of course, You should put the stone with the domed side to the cap stone, conical part to the balance. This stones have no oil sink, at least the sink is not ment to collect oil. Puttinfg the stone the other way will cause another, different problems.

 

[Alun]

50 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

 

Hi,

OK, the things seems beter this way. So the balance may be original. It is still not clear why flipping the small plate with the cap jewel would lift the pivot. Look at the plate carefully. It may be bent so the jewel can stay away fronm the main plate. Again, put the small plate (as You call it 'setting') domed side of the jewel up on a firm flat surface and press the stone firmly with something made of hard plastic in order to ensure that the flat face of stone gets flush with the plate face and is not shifted in. It is not normally the domed surface of the stone to pop above the other surface of the plate, so flipping the plate should not lift the pivot.

Now You need to source a hole jewel. What is the size of the pivots? I guess the outside diam of the stone is 1.2, so You can probably use one from Molnija 3602 (the hole is 12 there). Of course, You should put the stone with the domed side to the cap stone, conical part to the balance. This stones have no oil sink, at least the sink is not ment to collect oil. Puttinfg the stone the other way will cause another, different problems.

 

Hi there thanks for this....I will have a look at the small plate later and get back to you...and yes you are absolutely correct with the size of the hole jewel

[AndyGSi]

These are the best I can get with my camera phone.

Edit

Looking at your jewel compared to mine it would appear the staff has worn the hole in it after the pivot breaking.

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 06:23 PM by AndyGSi

[Alun]

56 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

These are the best I can get with my camera phone.

Edit

Looking at your jewel compared to mine it would appear the staff has worn the hole in it after the pivot breaking.

 

 

 

Yes I would agree....I'll take some photos later of the roller table on the balance and a better photo of the bottom jewel. ..

[Nucejoe]

9 hours ago, Alun said:

Hi all....

An up-date....

I've turned the bottom end cap jewel around (just flipped the setting) so that the domed face is towards the pivot and that has made a difference...see below.

I haven't yet replaced the bottom balance staff jewel hole.

I've removed the hairspring and removed the pallet fork....so I can spin the balance without anything 'getting in the way'

With the cap jewel dome facing the pivot the balance wheel spins freely.....the other way around it doesn't.

So flipping the cap jewel has lifted the balance up enough to allow the roller table to be free of the bottom plate.

There's a load of side shake because of the broken bottom hole jewel.

So ....noting the above do I now replace the bottom hole jewel with its oil well facing the cap jewel (dome up)....or facing the pivot??

 

 You can move the bottom  " hole jewel"     INWARDS   ( I mean towards the balance ) , this will  in turn    let the cap stone move towards the balance as well , actually you have moved the whole setting inwards, which by itself might lift the roller table enough to stand clear of mainplate, even without the capstone dome story, then if not happy with the result, you might keep the dome side of capstone facing the pivot.

I think the shock that broke the pivot, did actually move the setting too.

Good luck pal.

 

[Alun]

Hi all another update and some photos to answer a few questions I received...

The cap jewel plate is flat and on inspection looks perfect.

The hole jewel looks like it's been pushed a little too far away from the balance.... thoughts?

So when I have a few moments spare the hole jewel is coming out and replaced.

[AndyGSi]

Yes, I think you're right in getting the bottom jewel replaced as a starting point.

What staff is that you've now got fitted?

[RichardHarris123]

Is it just the light or is the impulse jewel chipped?  

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Alun said:

 

The hole jewel looks like it's been pushed a little too far away from the balance.... thoughts?

So when I have a few moments spare the hole jewel is coming out and replaced.

 

  The shock that broke the pivot also damaged the hole in bottom jewel, and pushed the jewel down away from the balance.

Obvious !!!   replace the jewel with new, adjust it flush level with mainplate.

Good luck.