Long Case Clock #2

[dnhb]

A friend has landed me with his family's LCC - all of it, when I was lead to believe he'd just bring the movement! Anyway, the most obvious issue is that the suspension spring is missing - except for the broken off 1cm stub in the bottom bar that sits in the crutch. I'd be grateful to know how important it is to get an exact replica of the original spring & what measurements I should take (in addition to the width & thickness of the stub) to specify the spring required. Apart from the name on the dial I can find no information that might help. Another issue is that the day window is fed by a saw-toothed wheel behind the dial (just visible in the 1st photo) but it seems there is no connection to this from the movement.

[RichardHarris123]

Is it a fusee, and if so is the chain missing? 

[dnhb]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Is it a fusee, and if so is the chain missing? 

There 's no chain but if there were one I can't see how it would connect the date wheel to the mechanism.

[oldhippy]

This is an 8 day duration Longcase clock. I has two key holes and it should have two lines of gut that when you wind it up they wind around the barrels. It strikes on the hour with rack striking. It also has silent and strike work.  Replacing the suspension spring is easy. I can't quite make out the name on the movement. Can you tell me please. It has a brass arched dial   does it measure 12 inches across? With the name and place I should be able to date it A photo of the case would be nice.  

Richard long case clocks do not have fusee movements. 30 hour Longcase clocks work on an endless chain and have a single weight plus what is called a donut which is a small weight that helps the chain to run and hang correctly.  

[dnhb]

24 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I can't quite make out the name on the movement. Can you tell me please. It has a brass arched dial   does it measure 12 inches across? With the name and place I should be able to date it A photo of the case would be nice.  

Thanks OH. The name is William Burroughs, Chippenham. The brass plate is 12" across but the dial itself is 11.24" diameter. The case appears to be Oak (the hood remains at my friend's house). I can see many suspension springs on line but don't know what this one's specifications would be. Re Rochard's comnent, I could see how a chain loop could be used manually to turn a toothed day wheel but this one is toothed on the inside circumference!

[oldhippy]

The name on the dial is not listed in vol 1 or vol 2 of watch and clock makers of the world. 

This dates around 1780 to 1910 looking at the spandrels because they do not have any cherubs. Spandrels are the four corner pieces on the dial. Also the dial is one piece very old ones the arch was attached to the main square. Also the makeup of the dial gives me the period of date. The trunk door is long and not short and wide which is another time scale. The case is very heavily decorated but crude, there are many differences between the left side to the right which indicates a country maker for the case certainly not a first class  cabinet  maker. The style of the hands also fit in to the time period as they are made of steel and not brass. I f I can be of any more help just ask. 

[dnhb]

Thanks for spending time on this. I've come across 2 William Burroughs: one was a Blacksmith in Chipenham, Cambridgeshire; the other one W James B, Clockmaker of Barbican, London. I've also seen mention of square date boxes being pre-1760 but I guess there will be exceptions....

 

[nevenbekriev]

On 6/17/2024 at 4:21 PM, dnhb said:

... I can see many suspension springs on line but don't know what this one's specifications would be. Re Rochard's comnent, I could see how a chain loop could be used manually to turn a toothed day wheel but this one is toothed on the inside circumference!

 

for the suspension spring, it is only important to choose one that will bring the rod on which the pendulum is hanged (it is not shown on the pictures) to the correct position in height. And, of course, to fit the slots in the rod and anchor bridge.

Richard didn't mean at all that the chain He mentioned has something to do with the calendar. He ment a fusee chain, if the movement was a fusee one. Well, it is not fusee, and is not spring driven at all. So, forget about the chain, no chain there.

If You need to know what is missing in the calendar movement, then show pictures of the wheels under the dial. The calendar wheel is not moving constantly, it is shifted once per night, the shifting takes some time - about half hour or similar. So, the calendar wheel is not just meshed with the other wheels. For sure, there must be a day wheel there (it will make one full revolution per 24h) and there must be a pin on this wheel, that will shift the calendar wheel one tooth ahead each night. There must be a jumper that will fix the position of the calendar wheel when the pin is away. The day wheel is (usually) driven by the hour wheel, and the ratio is 1:2. But sometimes watchmakers used different designs, where the day wheel is not dirrectly driven by the hour wheel.

[oldhippy]

With these clocks dials movements and cases were all made separately. Dials could be sitting around for ages before being used the same goes for all that makes up a clock. The customer would ask for what he or she wanted the more you wan't the more you had to pay. In it's time this was not a cheap clock to have made. Solid brass dial strike / silent. Other things such as what was the in style at that time. Longcase clocks from London and the surrounding area were far ahead in dial and case design then clocks from up north or south as much as ten years. It's still the same today London is the centre of things and again cost. In counties and places out in the sticks if you had problems in fixing mechanical things you went to your village blacksmith because every village had one. So I would say the blacksmith you have found had something to do with this clock. He might have just been the person who put the movement together. I gave it a latter date because what I can see of the movement the wheels have been cut by machine and not by hand, also it is made of brass and not cast brass.     

[dnhb]

On 6/19/2024 at 6:39 AM, nevenbekriev said:

for the suspension spring, it is only important to choose one that will bring the rod on which the pendulum is hanged (it is not shown on the pictures) to the correct position in height. And, of course, to fit the slots in the rod and anchor bridge.

I've now got one from Cousins which I need to cut to length & drill a hole in to attach the original bottom block. Do I need to anneal it before 'cutting' it (to prevent it 'splintering', maybe?) & to facilitate drilling it ?

[oldhippy]

I just used a punch, placed the s/s on a block of wood and made the hole, you might have to remove the bur around the hole with a small file a fine one is best. 

[dnhb]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

I just used a punch, placed the s/s on a block of wood and made the hole, you might have to remove the bur around the hole with a small file a fine one is best. 

Thanks. Does one just cut it to length with snips, then?

[oldhippy]

That should be fine.

[dnhb]

On 6/19/2024 at 6:39 AM, nevenbekriev said:

If You need to know what is missing in the calendar movement, then show pictures of the wheels under the dial. The calendar wheel is not moving constantly, it is shifted once per night, the shifting takes some time - about half hour or similar. So, the calendar wheel is not just meshed with the other wheels. For sure, there must be a day wheel there (it will make one full revolution per 24h) and there must be a pin on this wheel, that will shift the calendar wheel one tooth ahead each night. There must be a jumper that will fix the position of the calendar wheel when the pin is away. The day wheel is (usually) driven by the hour wheel, and the ratio is 1:2. But sometimes watchmakers used different designs, where the day wheel is not dirrectly driven by the hour wheel.

Hi Nev. Just prepared & fitted the new suspension spring & took the dial plate off to adjust the strike mechanism - and it's now working !! Attached is a picture of the wheels under the dial plate. I note there is a hole in the 5 o'clock position about 4.5 cms from the centre & this aligns with the centre of a circular 'shadow' on the back of the dial plate (see photo). So I'm guessing the date wheel was turned by a wheel mounted via that hole. Maybe this feature was an optional extra & the initial purchaser decided not to pay the extra for it...

 

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

That should be fine.

Well, after a bit of adjustment to/alignment of the striking/timing mechanism it's actually working, albeit with the dial plate off! Here's hoping I don't mess things up sync-wise when I remove the hands to put it back on. Many thanks for your supportive advice.

[oldhippy]

I see the calendar work is missing.  

[nevenbekriev]

I tried to drow how the missing day wheel should look like. You see where the post for it must be, probably  the hole is threaded. On the wheel must be small pin, that shifts the calendar.

[dnhb]

3 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I see the calendar work is missing.  

Yes: as I've said to Nev, there's evidence of the wheel that should be there on the back of the dial plate.

[rjenkinsgb]

This looks like it may be relevant?

 

 

[oldhippy]

The reason why it is all missing is because some calendar work never worked right, in order for it to change from one day to the next it took a few hours, the calendar rings are heavy and these teeth would wear so the complet thing would stick and stop the clock. If you look at where I have marked you can see worn teeth.

 

 

[dnhb]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:18 AM, rjenkinsgb said:

This looks like it may be relevant?

 

 

It is indeed, RJ even though the last part of the mechanism (a date dial) is different to the toothed date annulus I have here. However, OH's advice seems to be that it could be a waste of time installing the necessary mechanicals in the latter design as they tend to be a source of trouble. Thanks for your interest, anyway.

[oldhippy]

The difference you have with you clock and the video. The video is of  Longcase clock called a White dial the movement fixes on what is called a false plate so the callander wheel is very different. Your clock is a brass dial clock with is very different. 

Edited June 26, 2024 by oldhippy

[nevenbekriev]

16 hours ago, dnhb said:

... it could be a waste of time installing the necessary mechanicals in the latter design as they tend to be a source of trouble...

Actually, everything in a clock/watch movement more or less can be a source of trouble. Of cource, simplifying the things makes them more reliable. But if all in the calendar movement is made and adjusted correctly, then it will work fine. The problem here should be that actually the missing parts must be made as I don't believe that something similar that just will fit there is possible to source.

[oldhippy]

In this case it is the large calendar wheel that runs against the dial. During the changing of the date the calendar wheel slightly lifts and slides around and if there is wear on the calendar teeth it will lift and slip back which ends up with the calendar not changing.    

[dnhb]

On 6/27/2024 at 2:11 PM, oldhippy said:

In this case it is the large calendar wheel that runs against the dial. During the changing of the date the calendar wheel slightly lifts and slides around and if there is wear on the calendar teeth it will lift and slip back which ends up with the calendar not changing.    

Given your advice, I'm wondering if I can design & fabricate a manual calendar date change mechanism having a lever extending below the hood into the cabinet.....

[oldhippy]

That is up to you. If you do that you will de value the clock.