AS 1187 rate too fast

[Neverenoughwatches]

49 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 True, not all terminal curves have a bend  ( the last circle of the coil might be its terminal curve as well) as long as the coil  remains level ,concentric and unaffected as regulator arm is moved through entire length thats needed for regulation.

Rgds

 

 

Thing is the terminal curve is shaped so that the regulator can track it from both ends of it's range. Some of these that look like an untouched raw spring are still spiral shaped and often dont have enough room between the first and second coil next to the curb pins. Sure the first coil can be pulled out but the pins may not track it's non concentric last coil and need more adjustment . Still curious to know how differently end curveless springs perform without the double bend. 

35 minutes ago, DanB said:

Does anyone think that the (mis)shape of the pin is a problem (see attached photo)? Looks like at some point in time someone working on the watch tried to make an adjustment to it and it ended up like this. That's not something that's within my capabilities to straighten out.  

The curb pins are something that get knocked about a lot.  To fully straighten it out it would be removed and rolled between flat steel. There could be some rate variation between DD and DU if the pin was badly damaged and the pin spacing varied a lot from one position to another, more noticable at low amplitudes, the pins should be as parallel as possible.  It's not something i get over worried about as long as the frequency rates stayed at that point on the hairspring 

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, DanB said:

Does anyone think that the (mis)shape of the pin is a problem (see attached photo)? 

Not the misshape of pin itself, but should straighten it

Here, with the oscilator at rest, hairspring must come to rest at midpoint of pin-boot.

 Good luck fixing your watch.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by Nucejoe
correction

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Dan,

I think You need to understant the main principles of watch regulation first, and then all the answers will come by themselves.

No, the problem now is not the bent regulator pin. And yes, You can straighten it and just a tweezer is needed, and steady hand. What You say that You are not ready for such work is strange, this is just like a piece of wire that needs to be straightened. Yes it can break, but it will depend on how many bents/attempts it has taken previously, not by You skills. If You don't feel comfortable with it, just leave it alone, as I said the problem is not there.

There is a thing - You complain about faster rate, but we don't see on You pictures regulator in end of it's movement to the '-'. This makes me suggess that in this position the things get even worse, am I right? If I am right, this will confirm that the problem is in hairspring end shape.

What You need to do is to work on the hairspring terminal curve in a manner that will make hairspring to stay concentric and not change it's position when regulator is moved. Turn the cock with the balance up and move the regulator to the max in '-' direction. I mean the physical end of the motion, not the marks on the scale for example. You will see that the spring is pressed then and out of concentricity. Do no warry, just use a needle to press the end that comes out of the regulator in order to bend it a little so the pressure on the spring is released and it will position concentrically. After it is done, press the spring right where it is out of the stud in order to bend it a little so it will not be prssed firmly to none of the regulator pins, and if it changes the spring position, repeat the first part. Then start to move the regulator to '+' and observe the spring. If it changes it's position out of consentricity, then use the needle to press nere where the spring goes out of the regulator pins in order to bend it to direction needed to recover concenricity. When it is done to the end of the movement of the regulator to '+' return it back to the end of '-', see if something changed and correct it again.

What You need to acheave is the hairspring to be not touching anything, not only in neutral position of the balance, but in all positions of it's movement. To observe it , You will need to dissassemble the movement and put in place only the balance wit it's cock, then slowly rotate the balance wheel while observing the spring.

Edited June 19, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, DanB said:

Does anyone think that the (mis)shape of the pin is a problem (see attached photo)? Looks like at some point in time someone working on the watch tried to make an adjustment to it and it ended up like this. That's not something that's within my capabilities to straighten out. 

II think it is actually quite good that it is not within your capabilities of straightening out something that's not a problem. I've magnify the image conceivably that might have even been done at the factory.

oh dear now I feel really stupid I respond to an email regarding this message and I see there's a entire second page with everyone it now and consensus it must be straightened out. Except to really grasp this you should close the boot and ideally it be nice if there was a hairspring in their. The problem here would be is if it was bent at the factory to reduce the spacing between the pin and the boot straightening it out is going to give you lots of space which is not going to be good. 

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by JohnR725

[Jon]

The only real way to know if the hairspring end-curve, collet position, etc are correct is to remove the hairspring from the balance and place it over the underside of the balance cock to see if everything lines up.

The first pic is a hairspring with a gentle end-curve. Where the second coil is close to the regulator pin (curb pin) is of no worry, because a flat hairspring such as these don't breath much at that one side, only free-sprung and Breguet hairsprings have an even expansion and contraction on all sides.

Don't get hung up on what you think you can and can't do to a hairspring to get it to sit correctly as in this slide. if it requires a kink just before the stud, then do it, but be very sure where the bends need to be to get the hairspring constantly between the regulator pins (pic 1) and the collet bang on over the balance jewel (pic 2)

This is one I did recently, where the end-curve was way out with lots of little kinks in this part of the spring, which needed addressing first.

So, once the kinks have been removed and the end-curve formed, then I can think about getting the collet over the jewel and keeping the hairspring between the regulator pins, because left like this a big changes in beat error will be the evidence the collet isn't central when the index is moved from extremes of 'advancing' or 'retarding'

So, I worked out some bends close to the stud were required. I'm not getting side-tracked thinking the spring wasn't like this to begin with, so why am I putting such extreme bends into it to get it to work properly, as that is assuming anything was correct to begin with. And, I know doing what I'm doing is going to work, so I'm not interested in how it was, because how it was didn't work!

The last pic with the acute bends near the stud worked a treat and the second coil closest to the curb pin hardly breathes on that side, so doesn't touch the curb pin, but it is always good to check if that is happening.

I hope the pics help. As long as the hairspring is true on the flat when the stud is screwed to the stud holder on the balance (very important to screw up to gain the correct position as the stud positions itself) and the coils are evenly concentric and the end-curve is formed so the regulator pins don't ever push or pull them in the extremes of the index and the collet is exactly over the jewel and ensuring the second coil doesn't touch the curb pin, then your ready to attach it back to the balance and see the fruits of your labour!

But before you do, move the index from left to right and make sure the hairspring remains central and doesn't move.

Until you have ensured the hairspring is in this condition, as in the end slide, there is no need to touch the curb pin in my experience. It looks fine.

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

in other words it be nice to know what the problem really is before taking a cause of action.

Exactly!

Edited June 19, 2024 by Jon

[DanB]

Thanks everyone. Lots to consider. I'll take a closer look at the hairspring when it's off the balance cock as well as on (per various suggestions), see how it looks, and determine what should be done.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

II think it is actually quite good that it is not within your capabilities of straightening out something that's not a problem. I've magnify the image conceivably that might have even been done at the factory.

oh dear now I feel really stupid I respond to an email regarding this message and I see there's a entire second page with everyone it now and consensus it must be straightened out. Except to really grasp this you should close the boot and ideally it be nice if there was a hairspring in their. The problem here would be is if it was bent at the factory to reduce the spacing between the pin and the boot straightening it out is going to give you lots of space which is not going to be good. 

 

Parallel within the range of the hairspring's movement between DU and DD.