Omega cal 1012 not holding power

[quantieme]

Good Morning all,

I have an Omega cal 1012 that does not hold power. It stops after a day  to 2 days because there is no power left in the mainspring it has completely wound down. It has had a new mainspring and a replacement auto mechanism as the original was faulty. It will wind manually and it will wind on the rotor when you spin it manually but it does not seem to wind when you wear it or put it on a auto wind machine. I am wondering if I have another faulty auto mechanism as it was a used one. I have a Bergeon 7803 auto winder and I did put it on that with the case back removed and although I could not be sure it looked like the rotor was not making complete revolutions so i wore it for 2 days and it stopped again with no power, the rotor clearly turns if you move the watch as  if you were making movements so I am at a loss, any thoughts appreciated. Thank you

 

 

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, quantieme said:

that does not hold power

Not holding power might suggest that the mainspring is prematurely slipping. What sort of breaking grease did you use on the barrel wall for instance?

12 minutes ago, quantieme said:

replacement auto mechanism

What exactly is your definition of the auto mechanism? In other words what parts we talking about exactly?

15 minutes ago, quantieme said:

It stops after a day  to 2 days because there is no power left in the mainspring it has completely wound down.

So just to be clear if you manually wind the watch all the way up set it down and walk away it stops how long after wound up? This is one of the ways to separate whether you're having an auto winding problem versus something else in other words how long will the watch run until it comes to a stop preferably setting on a table with no external influences. Then this watch does have a 38 hour power reserve. 

 

[AndyGSi]

If you move the rotor manually can you see the barrel winding?

[Nucejoe]

 

1 hour ago, quantieme said:

 Omega cal 1012 that does not hold power. It stops after a day  to 2 days

Will you correct the title?   

 

Can you hear the rotor & winding sound  when back plate is installed?   specially when in FU position.

Are you sure the mainspring isn't too strong?  for the self winder device of your watch?

The rotor might be rubbing on back plate, if its a screw back plate, loosen the back plate a turn or two, wear the watch , see if it winds on wrist. There might have been a sealer washer for the backplate  which you now are missing.

Rgds

Edited Thursday at 11:39 AM by Nucejoe

[Knebo]

I think this  is the first thing that needs to be clarified. If you can manually wind it and it'll run for 38h, then you can turn your attention to the automatic works.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So just to be clear if you manually wind the watch all the way up set it down and walk away it stops how long after wound up? This is one of the ways to separate whether you're having an auto winding problem versus something else in other words how long will the watch run until it comes to a stop preferably setting on a table with no external influences. Then this watch does have a 38 hour power reserve

 

If the automatic winding is the problem, then this  is a great idea to check before any other major steps.

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

The rotor might be rubbing on back plate, if its a screw back plate, loosen the back plate a turn or two, wear the watch , see if it winds on wrist. There might have been a sealer washer for the backplate  which you now are missing.

 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 

Will you correct the title?   

@quantieme,   The title should correctly give an idea of the subject , as threads posted on WRT  remain accessible for future references. 

You can go back and correct the title of your thread. 

 First question that comes to mind when reading your post  is; 

How can a watch that's not holding power run for a day to 2 day ?

 Lucky we have JohnR  patient enough to ask many more questions, just to clarify what the OP was suppose to describe from the first. 

Rgds  &  

 

 

 

 

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

I think this  is the first thing that needs to be clarified. If you can manually wind it and it'll run for 38h, then you can turn your attention to the automatic works.

 

If the automatic winding is the problem, then this  is a great idea to check before any other major steps.

 

They've had it on a winder without the back so don't think the problem is anything rubbing.

[Knebo]

41 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

They've had it on a winder without the back so don't think the problem is anything rubbing.

Ah ok, I didn't quite get that

[Nucejoe]

9 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

They've had it on a winder without the back so don't think the problem is anything rubbing.

 

14 hours ago, quantieme said:

 I have a Bergeon 7803 auto winder and I did put it on that with the case back removed and although I could not be sure it looked like the rotor was not making complete revolutions   

 

     "  so i wore it for 2 days and it stopped again with no power "

 

 

@AndyGSi   winds with back removed on Bergeon winder ,  because he wears it for 2 days , 

but stops after 2 days on wrist, so its not winding with case back installed. Unless he wears with case back removed.       

OP has done the tests, just not clear .

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 01:04 AM by Nucejoe
Group confusion

[Nucejoe]

@quantieme     You should wear a watch with case back installed, specially if your wrist is hairy.

[quantieme]

hi, thanks for the answers, sorry its taken me so long to get back but been busy.

I have used moebius 8217 for the braking grease.

when fully wound the watch will run for about 2 days so definitely within its power reserve.

it will run on the bench no problem  and it will run on my wrist, i wore it continually until it stopped which was about 2 days and when i checked why it had stopped it was because there was no power in the barrel.

when i manually turn the rotor, yes you can see the barrel winding and the watch starts after about 30 rotations of the rotor,

When i say auto mechanism i mean the complete auto unit just removed from the watch as a whole including the rotor.

So to sum up the watch will happily run after a full manual wind and will run if i manually wind the rotor but does not appear to be self winding if it is worn or put on an auto wind machine.

[Knebo]

HI @quantieme, 

thanks for the clarifications.

1. When you have the watch open and move tilt it back and forth, will the rotor move around easily?

2. Do you feel resistance when you manually turn the rotor (there should be pretty much none)? 

3. When you have it open, laying flat on its crystal, tilt it to maybe 20-30 degrees and wind the watch via the crown. Does the rotor spin when you do that?

4. Is there vertical play in the rotor? if you press gently next to the center on the side opposite the large oscillating mass, does the oscillating mass go up/down noticeably? 

 

And finally: please post a picture!

Edited Friday at 11:29 AM by Knebo

[quantieme]

yes the rotor moves freely and goes round easily when you tilt the watch. no there is no resistance.

 

I should add this watch came to me about 8 months ago not working as it had substantial train wheel damage, it had a full service new mainspring and had the same fault back then and i remember then that the rotor was just whizzing round and although moving the barrel, it would not hold power, thats why I replaced the complete auto works bridge and as soon as i had done that i could feel the difference in the rotor and it was working ok, but it has now come back to me with the same fault.

 

another update, I put a witness mark on the ratchet wheel and put it back on the auto wind and it is definitely being wound by the rotor.

[AndyGSi]

Looking at the automatic winding details below it doesn't mention the 1012 but 30 rotations to get the movement working does seem a lot.

Do you know how many rotations of the barrel is a full wind and how many rotation you got from the 30 rotations of the rotor?

My suspicion would be there's something wrong with the auto mechanism.

https://watch-winder.store/watch-winding-table/omega/

Edit

Have you done anything else with the movement apart from replacing the auto mechanism?

Edited Friday at 02:51 PM by AndyGSi

[rossjackson01]

Can I put my two penneth in?

From the original post

"It stops after a day  to 2 days because there is no power left in the mainspring it has completely wound down".

Am I missing something?

Surely this a normal action of a watch winding down over a period of time? Are not most wind watches normally without power after such a time. All of my mechanical watches from a full wind (crown or rotor) stop after time. Usually dependent on the mainspring. Mine are from 30 hr to 40 hr. 

My regime has improved to the extent that my watches now have good capabilities, but more than 40 hrs? Only my quartz maintain their continuation, but that is purely due to the relevant battery.

 

quantieme

I think you have a very good watch. As you did a service to get it to that standard. Well done.

 

Edited Friday at 03:09 PM by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar, more information

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

"It stops after a day  to 2 days because there is no power left in the mainspring it has completely wound down".

Am I missing something?

 That one is easy Ross, OP means ,  the watch has not wound any, during the two days that was on his wrist.

The question remains, where did the two days of wind come from,

1- Did it come from manual wind through the crown? 

2- Or,   got wound on Bergeon winder? 

3-Manually turning the rotor? 

Other questions are, does ratchet wheel turn in either direction he turns the rotor? 

If it runs 2days with manual wind , power isn't  prematurely discharged, so IT IS  holding power.

Was winder module checked, for shakes, worn holes/ jewel holes, and final power transmission to ratchet wheel, the jewel hole of the ( ratchet wheels reduction wheel) might be faulty, or transmit power in one direction only.

All holes/jewels holes, arbours, gears, in auto device should be checked. that with broken ratchet teeth, holes barrel arbours fit in   !!!    

We know nothing about the mainplate hole for lower barrel arbour, lower arbour, lower barrel hole, barrel arbour shakes..... etc. 

The less we know, the bigger the guessing game becomes.

 Its a simple mechanical machine, not state of the art particle physics or cosmoscience.

 

 

 

[AndyGSi]

@nucejoe

I think from @quantieme original post that he's hand wound the movement.

Not sure why you're mentioning the gears, arbours etc when they've said that the watch runs OK for 2 Days?

Edited Friday at 06:58 PM by AndyGSi

[Neverenoughwatches]

From an empty reserve will the watch wind via the autoworks on a watchwinder with the caseback removed ?

 

[oldhippy]

You need to replace 1010 1464 it is the reverse wheel. 

Edited Friday at 08:51 PM by oldhippy

[Nucejoe]

57 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Not sure why you're mentioning the gears, arbours etc when they've said that the watch runs OK for 2 Days?

I was talking about gears,  arbour, etc.... in the self winder module , wherefrom  power is to get transferred to the barrel through ratchet wheels reduction wheel  or its equalent where side shake can let power to discharge, thus no wind.

This also can explain why the rotor goes round easy.

Edited Friday at 08:57 PM by Nucejoe

[rossjackson01]

Nucejoe, and others.

Thank you for the comment. Yes it Does seem that he rotor may be at fault.

Interesting post. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

You need to replace 1010 1464 it is the reverse wheel. 

The indication is if I read correctly he replaced the entire unit although he didn't say where the entire unit came from and as to whether is brand-new or used in other words used it may have the same problem plus the bonus problem

10 hours ago, quantieme said:

When i say auto mechanism i mean the complete auto unit just removed from the watch as a whole including the rotor.

.To be honest I was really hoping for numbers but I'll work with The number that @oldhippy Has given us which brings up a little problem which is why had asked in the first place but society and get numbers I didn't feel like tracking down of what exactly replaced. One of the unfortunate problems in the universe and watch repair is supplemental information not necessarily available to the world. Like Omega had some upgrades and suggestions for these movements in another instruction sheet. So if you're replacing part number 1464 you're supposed to replace 1437. Notice is a reference to increased winding speed that would suggest that they must've noticed there was an issue with winding and upgraded components. Then a unfortunate problem with Omega is upgrade components usually have the exact same part number with no other designation although here they do tell you what the differences. But a lot of times they assume you're purchasing brand-new parts from them no get the brand-new components.

[RichardHarris123]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

didn't say where the entire unit came from and as to whether is brand-new or used in other words used it may have the same problem plus the bonus problem

He did say it was a used one. 

[Nucejoe]

 The movement runs happy when hand wound,and unless  both auto devices have same fault, only the point where power is to be transferred to the ratchet wheel, is left to suspect.

Perhaps a worn jewel or the jewel pushed down in mainplate hole. 

 

 

[quantieme]

20 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Looking at the automatic winding details below it doesn't mention the 1012 but 30 rotations to get the movement working does seem a lot.

Do you know how many rotations of the barrel is a full wind and how many rotation you got from the 30 rotations of the rotor?

My suspicion would be there's something wrong with the auto mechanism.

https://watch-winder.store/watch-winding-table/omega/

Edit

Have you done anything else with the movement apart from replacing the auto mechanism?

yes it has a full service including a new mainspring, I am thinking the same, that again it is a faulty auto mechanism again. Its on the auto winder at the moment, its been on for 24 hours so I will see when and if it stops. If it does stop and there is no power in the barrel I am going to replace the auto mechanism again.