Omega cal 1012 not holding power

[AndyGSi]

Did you service it yourself and what mainspring did you use as this may also be a problem?

[Nucejoe]

On 6/29/2024 at 12:19 AM, oldhippy said:

You need to replace 1010 1464 it is the reverse wheel. 

 

On 6/28/2024 at 2:39 PM, quantieme said:

when i manually turn the rotor, yes you can see the barrel winding.

 

 So the reverser does transfer power. 

But might do so in only one direction , either clockwise or anticlock.

On 6/28/2024 at 10:19 PM, Nucejoe said:

 does ratchet wheel turn in either direction he turns the rotor? 

 or transmit power in one direction only.

 So,  if you will please let us know, does ratchet wheel turn , regardless  of which direction , you manually turn the rotor.

[nevenbekriev]

@quantieme,

I feel I need to say few things more than the others already sid here.

The auto winding module is a simple thing and finding faults in it is simple thing too. But You need to know how it works and what must it's behavior be first.

First - how it must work and behave when it is in normal order:

You have  traditional bi-directional winding module with two reverse wheels, but here in Omega the two reverse wheels are united in one, they are two reverse wheels mounted on one common pinion. Then, I have seen in some Omega movements that You have one more reverse wheel, which is mounted on the ratchet wheel. The ratchet wheel is made on two levels, with reverse function between them. This allows separate winding by the crown without bringing to motion of the auto module.  I am no sure if You case is this, I have not worked with such movements long time ago, have only distant memories.

You have to know how normally such auto module performs as to check and understand if there is a problem with it.

When the spring is not wound, turning the rotor in any direction will slowly turn the ratchet wheel, and You will fill almost no resistance. Turning the watch will make the rotor turn the module because of the rotor mass. BUT when the spring is already wound, You will fill significant resistance when turning the rotor , and slow turning of the watch may not make the module turn, as the mass of the rotor may not overcome the resistance of the spring winding. This is the reason why some movements will not auto wind fully on winding machines.

But it is important to know that in this condition (fully wound mainspring), turning of the rotor in any direction must continue turning the ratchet wheel (actually the arbor of the barrel, as there might be reverse wheel in ratchet wheel that may be out of health). Further more, a healthy module will have relatively small angular free play of the rotor. This will be about (no more than) 90 degrees. And, if You turn the rotor only to +/-180 degr., this must be enough to make the ratchet wheel turn.

So, here You have the way to check the function of the winding module. No use to check it's function when the spring is unwound, as then resistance is small. Wind the mainspring fully (6 revolutions of the ratchet wheel is enough) and start turning the rotor back and forth in the limits of 180 degr angle, not making full revolutions at all. Observe what is the angle wit small resistance (the free play) and is the resistance increasing (spring is wound) within the limits of this 180 degr. oscillation. Does the ratchet wheel turn ahead?

Of course, as @oldhippy said, the main reason for faults here is the double reverse wheel part. If it is out of order, usually disassembling it shows that one of the posts of the pawls inside has broke or smash. Replacing of the post (tapered steel pin needed to be pressed in place and then cut and filed to correct height) normalizes the function of the part. But, if there is reverse wheel in the ratchet wheel, it may be the reason too.

Edited July 1, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

First - how it must work and behave when it is in normal order:

Thinking about how the watch works on page 1 of this discussion I posted an image. This came out of an Omega document specifying things related to This watch and there's an upgrade. I'm reattaching the image notice the upgrade's purpose is to increase winding speed they must've grasped they had a problem. Also notice that both components have to be right in other words you can't just upgrade one you must upgrade both. Fortunately they tell you how to identify each one.

One of the reasons I bring this up is when people start mixing and matching components well if you have the wrong ones you're going to have an issue.

 

[quantieme]

Hi, than you for all the answers, I am sorry that I am so slow in replying but I always seem to be busy lol. Yes I serviced the watch myself and the spring was ordered from Cousins. I think I may have solved the problem.

I put it on my auto winder with a witness mark on the barrel ratchet wheel and left the case back off, the watch was clearly winding and in fact ran for 4 days non stop, I put the case back on it and checked after 10 mins and the witness mark had not moved and the watch stopped after 2 days again, so it appears the case back is touching the rotor and completely stopping it. I have included some pictures as I think it must have the incorrect case back and needs a deeper one. This watch did come to me in a terrible state with a lot of internal damage and I am thinking it has been cobbled together and someone just put what they thought was a correct case back on it. I am going to try and find another case back and hopefully that will solve the problem.

[AndyGSi]

Either wrong back or wrong movement in case.

136.0102 should be a 1030 Manual Wind

[JohnR725]

yes an unfortunate problem in the universe is mixing and matching and building watches to sell. From unscrupulous sellers who don't really care and hope that you never going to notice the problem.

then Omega case numbers are interesting? They usually don't exactly refer to an exact case sort of. In a case you can go to the cousins website editor in the case number and we end up with two separate cases. this is because depending upon what the case is made out of in other words you could end up with multiple cases with the exact same case number it just depends upon what they're made of and I wasn't paying attention when I downloaded so I'll just give you both of one's for solid stainless steel and other one is for yours. But no matter what it also confirms that it is the 1030 movement.

then I was curious as to what the movement looks like and I have a suggestion you may not like? What if you remove the automatic part of the watch now you have a manual wind it will fit the case. Otherwise I think you have to find a new case

https://ranfft.org/caliber/8285-Omega-1030

 

 

 

 

4790_Omega 136.0102 ST Case.pdf 4789_Omega 136.0102 MD Case.pdf

[RichardHarris123]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

have a suggestion you may not like? What if you remove the automatic part of the watch now you have a manual wind it will fit the case. Otherwise I think you have to find a new case

Unfortunately this statement is true, either remove the automatic works or find a new case.  You could remove the automatic works and use the watch whilst looking for a  new case. 

[AndyGSi]

Is it possible that someone has tried adding the auto mech to a 1030?

Not sure if it will help but can you confirm the movement serial number?

[Knebo]

It is usually only the caseback that specifies the case number, right? At least that's what I'm used to for vintage Omega.  I don't recall seeing case numbers anywhere else on the case.

So it is still possible that the rest of the case is correct for the dial and movement. It may only be the case back that is wrong, as @quantieme also suggested.

The challenge is to find out the case number of the "front" (+dial and movement) so that he can then find the corresponding caseback.

Or does anyone have any indications that the whole case would be wrong? On that note, did Omega use plastic movement holding rings during that period (looks like this watch has one)? 

[Nucejoe]

On 6/27/2024 at 2:54 PM, Nucejoe said:

The rotor might be rubbing on back plate, 

.

[quantieme]

On 7/4/2024 at 9:41 AM, AndyGSi said:

Either wrong back or wrong movement in case.

136.0102 should be a 1030 Manual Wind

that says it all, it is defo the wrong case back, thanks for the info, I am going to the Birmingham watch fair Sunday and will take it with me in the hope I can find the correct back.

18 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

.

It is hitting the back plate completely that is the fault.

On 7/4/2024 at 11:20 AM, AndyGSi said:

Is it possible that someone has tried adding the auto mech to a 1030?

Not sure if it will help but can you confirm the movement serial number?

37756386

On 7/4/2024 at 10:08 AM, RichardHarris123 said:

Unfortunately this statement is true, either remove the automatic works or find a new case.  You could remove the automatic works and use the watch whilst looking for a  new case. 

its a customers watch and he wants to keep as is.

On 7/4/2024 at 12:01 PM, Knebo said:

It is usually only the caseback that specifies the case number, right? At least that's what I'm used to for vintage Omega.  I don't recall seeing case numbers anywhere else on the case.

So it is still possible that the rest of the case is correct for the dial and movement. It may only be the case back that is wrong, as @quantieme also suggested.

The challenge is to find out the case number of the "front" (+dial and movement) so that he can then find the corresponding caseback.

Or does anyone have any indications that the whole case would be wrong? On that note, did Omega use plastic movement holding rings during that period (looks like this watch has one)? 

Its quite a deep movement with large raised batons on the dial I have no reason to suspect the case is wrong, but the train wheels were all damaged so i think the back had been missing for a long time hence the damage, and i know the dealer this watch came from and I have no doubt he just fitted the first case back that he came across.

I'm being lazy but does anyone know what the case back number should be for a cal 1012

[RichardHarris123]

162.005

[AndyGSi]

2 hours ago, quantieme said:

I'm being lazy but does anyone know what the case back number should be for a cal 1012

There are a number of omegas that had the 1012 with different backs.

What does it say on the dial?

[JohnR725]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:01 AM, Knebo said:

Or does anyone have any indications that the whole case would be wrong

yes the whole case is wrong.

On 7/4/2024 at 4:01 AM, Knebo said:

It is usually only the caseback that specifies the case number, right?

yes the case back number and the serial number found on the case refer specifically to the case. I don't think there's any way of cross referencing a movement serial number back to the case. way.

 

22 hours ago, quantieme said:

its a customers watch and he wants to keep as is.

this statement is a bit confusing? in other words the customer purchased a defective watch in the wrong case and would like to keep the wrong case just the way it is? Then get the watch running through the back on and don't worry about the automatic as long as a watch runs who cares customer should be happy with their defective watch casing.

22 hours ago, quantieme said:

Its quite a deep movement with large raised batons on the dial I have no reason to suspect the case is wrong, but the train wheels were all damaged so i think the back had been missing for a long time hence the damage, and i know the dealer this watch came from and I have no doubt he just fitted the first case back that he came across.

I'm being lazy but does anyone know what the case back number should be for a cal 1012

unfortunate way case back numbers don't work that way. It might be possible if you had access to the Swatch group website may be perhaps you could cross reference a movement to a case. Otherwise you could Google the movement number and find somebody selling a watch like this is an example and then you get a case number

https://www.chrono24.sg/omega/omega-seamaster-automatic--20-microns-gold-plated-case--ref-1660202--cal-1012--id35164183.htm

 

[quantieme]

Final update to this, I managed to buy a complete watch for spares or repair at the Birmingham watch fair, an Omega cal 1022 for the bargain price of £50 (and it works  ) The case back was a perfect fit and the watch has been running  now since Sunday afternoon from start up on the rotor. I will run it to the end of the week and then its going back to my customer.

Thank you for all the help and advice and I have learnt do not forget to check case back ref numbers DOH.

[SwissSeiko]

Another option to this if others have this issue and cant find the correct case back is to trim off some material on the lathe to get more clearance. Obviously a last resort option, but an option nonetheless