*Practical* acceptable amplitude expectations for a vintage watch

[mbwatch]

Hopefully this doesn't raise too much ire. Very often when someone presents a timing machine result on a newly serviced watch and the amplitude is on the low side, someone will chime in right away to say something to the effect of "don't bother reading those results until you get the amplitude closer to 270, take it apart and clean again." Then I remembered watching Mark's service of a 1960's Cyma where he states "we would normally expect a vintage watch such as this one to be within the range of 180 to 220 degrees."

Later after servicing and troubleshooting that movement to fix the barrel arbor bearing, it reaches somewhere around 195 degrees and he says he is much happier with that result. Ultimately it goes to about 215 (and somehow then 245 when shown on the Weishi 1000, unexplained). 200-210 is closer to what I am typically able to achieve on an older Swiss movement, even with a new mainspring and I have been working under the assumption that I need to keep doing better. But do I? Is the "270 or start again" mentality shared by most professional watchmakers or is this "180-220 is probably pretty good for a 70 year old movement" attitude okay?

 

 

 

[rehajm]

…with my amateur experience I’m able to achieve that magic 270 or better so often that I do go looking for faults when I don’t. Sometimes the movement might not be capable of those amplitude numbers but quality Swiss movements from the early 20th century respond well to modern lubricants and cleaners, Seikos and a few Swiss are lower amplitude by design. The bigger question to answer is will it keep accurate time worn on the wrist? 

…but if you’re consistently getting those lower numbers with good quality movements I’d take the time to audit what you’re doing…esp if you replace mainsprings…

 

Edited Sunday at 08:05 PM by rehajm

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, mbwatch said:

closer to 270,

Why settle for 270? You should strive for more never ever accept less especially with this group

3 hours ago, mbwatch said:

"180-220 is probably pretty good for a 70 year old movement" attitude okay?

I'm assuming for your vintage movement you have the lift angle set correctly? Then proper timing procedure like checking dial-up and dial down looking for pivot faults. Checking the escapement lubrication the condition of the pivots etc.

you do end up with some interesting problems on vintage like why don't they publish amplitude specifications? Or for that matter why don't they would publish timekeeping specifications?

As the watch companies usually don't publish lift angle before certain point in time because timing machines didn't exist that would measure amplitude which brings up the question of how Did the watchmaker survive without having a timing machine To please. As the most important function as a watchmaker is pleasing the timing machine by getting it acceptably high amplitude numbers who cares about timekeeping? So if you look on timing machine manuals typically they'll make suggestions like in the witschi training course we find this

Obviously witschi doesn't know what they're talking about amplitude from 250 hasn't even hit that magical 270. But there is a reference to timekeeping and the beat error.

Now is amplitude really that important? Let's look at this in a little different fashion?For instance image out of one of the witschi documents escapement where to the sounds come from?

Now let's combine it with another image

Let's look at this a little different than you normally do lift angle with the image above tells you the time span that the escapement is screwing up the oscillation of our balance wheel. From the impact of the roller jewel on the fork until locking the escapement is exerting and influence on our timekeeping. The loss of energy on impact with the fork the artificially pushing from the mainspring or basically screwing up timekeeping.

So if we were to make comparisons like a watch running at 100° versus maybe 250° with a typical lift angle around 50°. Then on the lower amplitude 50% of our amplitude is under artificial influence versus a higher amplitude where  1/5 influence. So typically a higher amplitude the escapement isn't screwing up things as much. But it also depends on the quality of the escapement the adjustments.

Then somewhere in all of this would be the physics of the spinning balance wheel bigger amplitudes possibly better immunity to vibrations shock twisting motion etc. but it also stands on the type of the balance wheel a larger pocket watch friends since the timing machine especially if you have a nifty microphone that rotates by itself it needs more time to settle just because it does and of course amplitude will come into play here so a lot of things amplitude is better but a magical number or death well that's only acceptable on this group.anywhere else

timekeeping that's what I spent a lot of time at work doing trying to get vintage pocket watches to keep time. I'm less concerned about amplitude and I don't have a magical amplitude or else. I'm typically looking at things like the difference in dial-up and dial down indicating pivot problems or if it looks really too low than I might go through in figure out the lift angle to make sure that's correct. But the biggest thing is it has to keep time on the timing machine I must please the timing machine or my boss gets unhappy. Fortunately I get paid by the hour so that takes lots of time to please the timing machine So my boss is pleased the world will be good. But the big thing is timekeeping not amplitude unless it looks really bad.

59 minutes ago, rehajm said:

The bigger question to answer is will it keep accurate time worn on the wrist? 

Yes the classic problem watch repair discussion groups with the obsession of worshiping their timing machine and a magical amplitude versus what does the watch Due on a wrist where we don't have a timing machine to verify its amplitude. Somebody really needs to get a phone app with clip on microphone with recording so we can keep track of that amplitude when it's on the wrist

timekeeping specifications become a problem as I mentioned before as we typically don't get specifications for anything vintage. Timing machine manuals are good as they would give specifications like this comes out the Greiner manual notice no amplitude though how sad

Then let's look at typical Swiss not vintage unfortunately. I'm attaching a eta document one of my favorite documents they do is the manufacturing information sheets hard defined as far as I can tell every mechanical and quartz watch probably had one. Filled with all the nifty specifications of everything.

Typically when looking at basically anything relatively modern can find timing specifications this is what you're going to see. Number of testing positions better quality watches get more positions normal watches you'd only check at least for specifications I would still personally check in more positions just as a good way of looking for problems or issues but officially for timekeeping purposes they only look at a couple positions increasing as the quality the watch does of course. Then they give you a timing. Timing difference between the various positions this is why a lower grade watches zero I'm looking between two positions not six as this gets harder to do as a number positions go up. The isochronal number this is quite interesting. Basically the difference in amplitude this is where watch that would maintain a even amplitude over 24 hours even if it's not the magical whatever the group expects will keep better time typically the watch that starts at 300 and drops to some lower number. It's also where the shape of the mainspring comes in as the shape of the mainspring will change the power curve. Then we get the classic what is the maximum amplitude because anything over this can cause issues. Note we do not get a target amplitude target timekeeping but not amplitude. Then at the end of 24 hours this is the minimum and it varies between the watch companies. I think Omega might have some watches as low as 160° but they still have to keep time.

So yes the most important thing in the universe except for this discussion group is does the watch keep time? How many customers are how many people wearing a watch are concerned about their amplitude?, A Rolex customers are concerned about the amplitude they get really cranky of their watches off by more than one second a day. Oh and no one not kidding about the Rolex customers we had somebody come and they were unhappy with the servicing done some more elsewhere in the past there were happy but this time somebody adjusted the Rolex to the actual specifications but the customer expected much closer to zero. Yes people with watches are obsessed with timekeeping.

 

 

Witschi Training Course.pdf ETA 6497-1 Manufacturing Information.pdf

[mbwatch]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Timing machine manuals are good as they would give specifications like this comes out the Greiner manual

I can't tell you how reassuring it is to see 1min/day positional error & 2-3min isochronal error as an acceptable tolerance for a simple pallet or good pin pallet watch. This makes me much more confident in the performance I recently got out of a 7 jewel and not at all well built Junghans pocket watch caliber.

 

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes people with watches are obsessed with timekeeping.

Good time to buy stock in Casio.

 

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

…but if you’re consistently getting those lower numbers with good quality movements I’d take the time to audit what you’re doing

I almost never work on good quality movements. The handful of Unitas 6498's I have done all had no difficulty reaching >290 (and though 40-50 years old, all those were in like new condition). But otherwise, I mainly have serviced everyday workhorse movements out of old watches like the AS 1187,  or Soviet movements. Nothing anyone would classify as high quality.

I was seeing something on Watch U Seek or similar, where somebody complained about low amplitude on a Timex. A Timex!

I'm still not all the way there with my tooling though. I don't have a microscope, I don't have a Jacot tool. I'm mostly stuck with whatever condition my pivots are in, beyond cleaning them. I imagine there's quite a bit of potential power being lost there.

(and still, my question here isn't "how do I get more amplitude" - it's more like "is it just internet hobbyists who are hopelessly obsessed with high amplitude")

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Good time to buy stock in Casio.

Somewhere recently on the group someone was pointing out the obsolescence of mechanical watches because of course smart phones. I was going to ask a question the salespeople at work but since I found the whole subject in the waiting I didn'tsort of. I work in a mall store that sells watches and of course services them and say goes for instance are literally flying off the shelf and they're not necessarily known a super good timekeepers.  It would be interesting to see if any of the watch companies do offer stock and whether you'd actually make any money at all? I have Seiko has stock probably not. On the other hand Seiko is so diverse in the so many other fields.

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I don't have a microscope, I don't have a Jacot tool.

Oh dear I will get in trouble again. The last time I commented on microscope I got annoyed with the discussion and did not participate anymore on the other hand this discussion just end it all by itself? So yes  having a microscope is nice. We have one at work not in the best location for me but we do have one. People look at it all the time. I have mixed feelings about people who work under microscopes often times in that other discussion the microscopist set up the looked straight that we as opposed to watchmakers are typically look into their work. But I got chastised by somebody that  microscopes are the way to go today and that I'm an old senile goat although the word old senile goat wasn't actually implied but it was definitely there.

Then the pivot polishing tool had one sold it. I'm not authorized to discuss my experience somebody will swoop down and burn me at the stake like  last time. There are other ways to polish pivots though although it would be nice if you to watchmakers lathe.

Then if you really want to get obsessed about your pivots for better everything and if it's practical which it isn't always especially on vintage replacing the balance staff. I know somebody who worked in a Rolex shop authorized Rolex and he said they changed more staffs for timekeeping issues and anything else. Just the slightest bit of anything in other words not perfect they just change the staff. Vintage becomes a problem of getting the right staff and introducing issues because of prior work. Like often times on the pocket watches I do the jewels are slightly different size's of I change the staff I'd have to change the pivots size or and change the jewels and we don't taken enough money to cover restoration of watches back to the original factory condition. So I usually just leave things as they are but I will polish the pivots if I don't like the amplitude and or I can see a difference between dial up and Dial down.

Oh and just to nail my coffin shut microscopes do not necessarily allow you to see better if you don't grasp what it is you're looking in the first place. Oftentimes seeing something really big and not grasping what it is isn't going to help Or if somebody I know who makes YouTube video is who I help with will send me a video and the pivot looks like it's flopping around in the whole because you're looking at it at such a microscopic level were the pivot is just fine so sometimes things can Actually look worse because of the magnification you're looking at them.

Will be really nice to find is original watch company timing specifications of what they expected?So for instance the Elgin watch company in 1955 had the specifications of -10 to +50 seconds a day. It unfortunately what I'm looking at doesn't specify how many positions and it definitely doesn't  specify amplitude although some or else the document there is a reference to amplitude. Rather than amplitudes by degrees it refers to a number of turns the balance wheel has and if it's too little it goes back to the escapement adjusting department and If it's too much it sent to the mainspring department where the swap with the weaker mainspring. If you look in the vintage Elgin parts book They did have weaker mainsprings that of course no longer exist. Than not just Elgin even Rolex has weaker mainsprings which seems weird it seems like we show stronger mainspring skip that amplitude up. Yes I have an obsession with poking fun at amplitude.

 then railroad grade timekeeping and look at the year because were dealing with a very very nice watch. Cheers example of railroad timekeeping which might actually beat out on Rolex over time.

In the last thing when you're dealing with watch running issues watches can just wear out. Especially when you seven jewel watches the bearings will get worn or people of played with your watch before you. Typically on American pocket watches the banking pins  always have been played with. Things done to the balance wheel lots of creative and interesting things have been done to the watch before you got it which makes things interesting if you're trying to restore it to something that's got keep time trying to figure out what somebody is done to this watch before you and try not to think about why they did it because it makes no sense at all. One of the last watches is working on had the balance wheel out of round they bent the bimetallic arms in by several millimeters so it's grossly out of round it looks horrible when it's spinning. Then they get text 16 timing washers off I'm guessing they were put on to make up for the watch running too fast because somebody bent the balance arms? Yes the joys of vintage both wristwatch and pocket watches

 

 

Hamilton 992b 950 timing.PDF

[rehajm]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

But otherwise, I mainly have serviced everyday workhorse movements out of old watches like the AS 1187,  or Soviet movements. Nothing anyone would classify as high quality

If you’re coaxing these into good order

[mbwatch]

16 minutes ago, rehajm said:

If you’re coaxing these into good order

So long as I can call 205° "good order."

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

and say goes for instance are literally flying off the shelf

I had to think this one through a while. Seikos sell well, thanks audio transcription, good effort.

 

[nickelsilver]

When I do vintage work for factories, which is often pieces from mid-20th century but back 100 years as well, they expect to see timing printouts in 6 positions at full wind (minus an hour or so) and at 24 hours. At full wind they really want to see 270+ amplitude, but if that's not possible, similar to John's info above, there are minimums for 24h. They get a bit testy if the amplitude is much below 260 at full wind, that's for sure.

 

When I do work for a local shop, he wants to see 270, but for a mid-range 60 year old piece is happy with 250 as long as it's stable in rate over 24h.

 

The best book I've seen on watch adjusting (precision timing), by Joseph Rugole*, states that if a watch isn't capable of hitting 270 in the horizontals, with not more than a 45 degree drop going to verticals, it's not worth trying to rate it to any high standard. In the Hamilton links from John above they don't state any amplitude requirements, but I'm sure the fellows rating those for railroad use knew the rules and it's easy enough to see the amplitude on two arm balances (especially pocket watches) without a machine that tells you. From the Hamilton stuff I've worked on hitting "ideal" amplitudes is really not an issue at all.

 

So I think the Omega info from John above is probably a good guideline. There's a max amplitude at full wind, and more importantly a minimum at 24h. I've certainly had pieces that sung along at 270+ full wind, and were a disaster at 24h. Then you start getting fancy with balance pivot shape and such, and it becomes rather time consuming.

 

*Watch Adjustments by Joseph Rugole

It's a collection of articles he wrote for the Horological Times in the 80s, and it's fantastic.

 

- Also- you don't have to wait 24h to see those rates, most watches have around a 7.5 ratio between barrel and center pinion, so you can let the mainspring down about 3 1/3 turns and that's where you'd be at 24h.

Edited yesterday at 09:33 AM by nickelsilver

[mikepilk]

As a beginner I remember some watches would immediately fire up with 270°+ amplitude, while others struggled at 220° no matter what I tried. It baffled me. I usually blamed it on the mainspring - it rarely is, (I only change mainsprings now if really necessary).

As you gain experience you can notice where you are losing power - how free the balance and gear train are, what is the correct end shake etc. I now expect to see 270°+, and as I do this for fun, like to find the fault if I don't see it.
I wouldn't be worried if you only see about 230°-240°, as long as it's still running well after 24h, you can make a watch keep good time. I have recently re-serviced a couple of watches from my own collection which didn't have great amplitude when I first serviced them, but now with more experience, I can find extra amplitude.

Assuming the balance is swinging freely, what I would do to try to improve amplitude :

Peg all the jewel holes (especially pallet arbor)

Gear train - check all pivots are clean end shakes are correct.

Barrel. Assemble without mainspring and check arbor can rotate freely with correct end shake.
With barrel in the movement, check for wear in the top bridge. I have found that THIS is one of the main reasons for poor amplitude. Only a little to much play and the barrel can tilt and hit the bridge or centre wheel. I believe many beginners will not spot this, and it's an amplitude killer.

 

[mbwatch]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Only a little to much play and the barrel can tilt and hit the bridge or centre wheel. I believe many beginners will not spot this, and it's an amplitude killer.

I have watched enough Chronoglide disassembly livestreams that this one is pretty internalized for me.

[mikepilk]

19 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

I have watched enough Chronoglide disassembly livestreams that this one is pretty internalized for me.

Hammer time 

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I don't have a Jacot tool. I'm mostly stuck with whatever condition my pivots are in, beyond cleaning them.

If the pivots have defects of any kind it can affect amplitude quite a bit. I've seen phenomenal differences before and after burnishing pivots. It's like the jewel holes. Any defects and the movement won't perform its best.

The only tricky bit with using a Jacot tool is how to hold the burnisher and not press your face into the tool but keep a distance. Fortunately @nickelsilver has shown us how it should be done and I have tried to illustrate it in a video.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Hammer time 

Got some of my own Hammertime going on to M.C , it just felt like the right thing to play lol

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

*Watch Adjustments by Joseph Rugole

It's a collection of articles he wrote for the Horological Times in the 80s, and it's fantastic.

A quick Joseph Rugole Google search gave me three issues of the magazine. I haven't checked yet if those are the ones about Watch Adjustment but I wouldn't be surprised.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/joseph-joe-rugole-the-greatest-slovenian-canadian-master-watch-and-clockmaker-longtime-correspondent-and-technical-editor-awi.187009/

Anyway, here's a collection of all the issues from 1977 to 2009.

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

But I got chastised by somebody that microscopes are the way to go today and that I'm an old senile goat

I wouldn't agree with "old and senile" but goat sounds just about right to me ("Greatest Of All Time")! 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

A quick Joseph Rugole Google search gave me three issues of the magazine. I haven't checked yet if those are the ones about Watch Adjustment but I wouldn't be surprised.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/joseph-joe-rugole-the-greatest-slovenian-canadian-master-watch-and-clockmaker-longtime-correspondent-and-technical-editor-awi.187009/

Anyway, here's a collection of all the issues from 1977 to 2009.

I wouldn't agree with "old and senile" but goat sounds just about right to me ("Greatest Of All Time")! 

 

Well at least not the senile bit

I still appreciate those issues H enough reading to last for years

[mikepilk]

15 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I don't have a microscope, I don't have a Jacot tool. I'm mostly stuck with whatever condition my pivots are in, beyond cleaning them. I imagine there's quite a bit of potential power being lost there.

If you don't have a Jacot tool, you can still give pivots a bit of a polish. Use some pegwood with a hole in the end, and some abrasive like jewellers rouge, then spin the pegwood between your fingers to give them a clean. Also the pinion gear teeth (leaves) can be dirty. I use some sharpened pegwood to clean between the teeth.

[Neverenoughwatches]

49 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

If you don't have a Jacot tool, you can still give pivots a bit of a polish. Use some pegwood with a hole in the end, and some abrasive like jewellers rouge, then spin the pegwood between your fingers to give them a clean. Also the pinion gear teeth (leaves) can be dirty. I use some sharpened pegwood to clean between the teeth.

I do use the light green fine Eveflex pin polishers, i dont make it a habit only if  pivots look badly tarnished. Good idea with the pegwood hole thing mike, do you pack the hole with rouge ? Could be a good alternative to the Bergeon pivot polisher, I also use polinum for various hole and pivot buffing mixed with a bit of paraffin to soften it up and give it some extra gunk removing power. 

[mbwatch]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I do use the light green fine Eveflex pin polishers, i dont make it a habit only if  pivots look badly tarnished. Good idea with the pegwood hole thing mike, do you pack the hole with rouge ?

Between these two options, I would feel safer (less likely to break pivots) with Eveflex pin polishers. (knowing it's only really a clean and not able to repair scoring or reshape) Though I believe I remember some derisive attitudes toward that method in the past. I do usually give pivots a sort of scrub in pithwood, though I doubt it is very effective at anything beyond dislodging dirt chunks.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I wouldn't agree with "old and senile" but goat sounds just about right to me ("Greatest Of All Time")! 

I actually rather like that.

Thinking about pivot polishing let's see what the Elgin watch company thought about that.

 

[mikepilk]

" and HER stroke must be just right" 

Wouldn't get away with that these days.

[caseback]

5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Hammer time 

Hammer time can cause some burrs, so don't forget to check for those after using the smoothing broach.  A large size Seitz reamer is perfect for removing burrs.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Between these two options, I would feel safer (less likely to break pivots) with Eveflex pin polishers. (knowing it's only really a clean and not able to repair scoring or reshape) Though I believe I remember some derisive attitudes toward that method in the past. I do usually give pivots a sort of scrub in pithwood, though I doubt it is very effective at anything beyond dislodging dirt chunks.

The rougher grades will pull score marks out, you'll end up with a thinner pivot but you would whatever you use .

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

" and HER stroke must be just right" 

Wouldn't get away with that these days.

I think you'll find that most women would get away with that , it's their husbands that wouldn't 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

HER

Yes that would be problematic but the Elgin watch company did employ everybody. For instance here's a video shows the Elgin watch company. 

 

 

[mbwatch]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

For instance here's a video shows the Elgin watch company

I will have to find time to watch all of this. 5min in and I am floored by the automated milling and the "ten plates at once damaskeening rig"

[VWatchie]

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The rougher grades will pull score marks out, you'll end up with a thinner pivot but you would whatever you use .

Not just thinner but cone-shaped. That's one reason EveFlex or similar methods can't replace a Jacot tool. EveFlex is good for cleaning but I wouldn't use anything coarser than the "extra fine grit, soft".

14 hours ago, caseback said:

A large size Seitz reamer is perfect for removing burrs.

Thanks for the tip! Is it an idea or have you tried it?