Timex v- conic balance

[Neverenoughwatches]

Eyup folk of the watch world, my  condition is getting the better of me just lately as i now have 5 watches repairs on the go at once while waiting for things to happen with them and pieces to aquire for them. The latest being a Timex, not quite sure of the calibre but it has their famous balance design. I used their prescribed method of cleaning but didn’t take out the balance,  i am struggling to get some amplitude and the balance wants to stop . Has anyone oiled these v conic balance bearings, i cant find any good detailed explanations other than the cup should be no less than 3/4 full. I haven't disassembled the balance as yet, anything i need to look out for folks before i do that ? Tia

[nevenbekriev]

You will not get good amplitude unless You sharpen the cones

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

You will not get good amplitude unless You sharpen the cones

Thanks nev, how sharp is sharp ?

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

 

 

[mbwatch]

Like a sharpened pencil, I have heard it said. I don't have the ability to sharpen them myself so i just oil them and it's a gamble whether I get a strong amplitude. But I don't worry much about it because they're never going to have good isochronism anyway. I never take out the balance anymore though as they describe in the service manual.  Instead I focus on getting them into beat because they're usually miles out. The collet is reachable with a .6mm screwdriver if you remove the brass end shake screw. At which point I also stuff 9010 into the cups.

Speaking of, how is yours set? I like to tighten the balance screw until it seizes, then back it out 1/8 turn until the balance frees again and that seems to work.

Timex suggests non-spreading oil on 2 escape teeth, but 9451 on the pallet pins usually makes a huge difference if the balance doesn't want to keep running. 

[HectorLooi]

Timex conic balances are quite easily removed to do maintenance. Just unpin the hairspring, back out the hairspring from the regulator, unscrew one of the conic cups and balance will drop out.

The balance staff is incredibly hard and really difficult to reshape with a cutter. I usually sharpen them on a lathe with stones or more recently, with diamond files. I start with #1000, #2000 and end with #3000. I would stop when tip is almost needle sharp. I then put some autosol on a piece of leather and strop the point to round it off a bit.

I've also seen conic cups that have become damaged, usually more on clocks than watches because clocks remain in one position all the time. I don't see any replacements for these cups available. I haven't tried reshaping the cups with carbide drills yet, but I think that would work.

Since the balance is out, you can easily put a drop of oil into them. I normally just fill them 1/3 full because when the balance is put back in, the oil level will rise.

[nevenbekriev]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks nev, how sharp is sharp ?

 

Hm, how many devils can gather on the tip of a needle?

Sharp means absolutelly sharp, then one-two slight rounding movements with burnisher to round the tip. If leaved without this final rounding, the tip can cut in the cup.

Watch this video. the staff there is not well grasped in the collet, but othervice the process is shown as it should. I don't use polishing compounds, You know why, only burnisher.

Normal free oscillations test before and after will show what the condition of the pivots/bearings is.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hm, how many devils can gather on the tip of a needle?

Sharp means absolutelly sharp, then one-two slight rounding movements with burnisher to round the tip. If leaved without this final rounding, the tip can cut in the cup.

Watch this video. the staff there is not well grasped in the collet, but othervice the process is shown as it should. I don't use polishing compounds, You know why, only burnisher.

Normal free oscillations test before and after will show what the condition of the pivots/bearings is.

Great video nev thank you

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Timex conic balances are quite easily removed to do maintenance. Just unpin the hairspring, back out the hairspring from the regulator, unscrew one of the conic cups and balance will drop out.

The balance staff is incredibly hard and really difficult to reshape with a cutter. I usually sharpen them on a lathe with stones or more recently, with diamond files. I start with #1000, #2000 and end with #3000. I would stop when tip is almost needle sharp. I then put some autosol on a piece of leather and strop the point to round it off a bit.

I've also seen conic cups that have become damaged, usually more on clocks than watches because clocks remain in one position all the time. I don't see any replacements for these cups available. I haven't tried reshaping the cups with carbide drills yet, but I think that would work.

Since the balance is out, you can easily put a drop of oil into them. I normally just fill them 1/3 full because when the balance is put back in, the oil level will rise.

Thanks for explanations Hector, the bloody collet is insanely tight on the balance.

5 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Like a sharpened pencil, I have heard it said. I don't have the ability to sharpen them myself so i just oil them and it's a gamble whether I get a strong amplitude. But I don't worry much about it because they're never going to have good isochronism anyway. I never take out the balance anymore though as they describe in the service manual.  Instead I focus on getting them into beat because they're usually miles out. The collet is reachable with a .6mm screwdriver if you remove the brass end shake screw. At which point I also stuff 9010 into the cups.

Speaking of, how is yours set? I like to tighten the balance screw until it seizes, then back it out 1/8 turn until the balance frees again and that seems to work.

Timex suggests non-spreading oil on 2 escape teeth, but 9451 on the pallet pins usually makes a huge difference if the balance doesn't want to keep running. 

Thank mb i thought the same with the tightness, till it almost stops then back it off a touch.

[Neverenoughwatches]

I made a good job of sharpening the staff points by hand with a degussit stone and straightened out the hairspring.  Then.......... made a real effing balls up of re-installing the balance, you gotta watch the far side of where its going, i found it tight feeding it in. Think I've trashed the lever pins or escape wheel, real dissappointed with ma self

[nevenbekriev]

I didn't understand what exactly happened. Can You show pictures?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

I didn't understand what exactly happened. Can You show pictures?

Hi Nev, i had a little trouble getting the balance fitted back in, not much room, then it oscillate very slowly. The balance looks good, hairspring looks good and clean, no catching anywhere , coil spacings fine but very slow. With balance back out the lever is slow to snap across banking pins, i think i have caught either the pallet pins or the escape wheel when fitting the balance. I need to take it all apart to see what damage i have made.

Not banking pins, has no banking pins 

Is that it ? Apart from the stem hour wheel and cannon pinion thats it. Know idea whats going on the mainspring but as far as i could tell this has never been opened.