Citizen Square Custom 27 jewel 5204 movement

[ManSkirtBrew]

I posted about this guy in the "Which watch have you got coming" thread, but here's the teardown.

27 is a lot of jewels! Cap jewels as far as the eye can see. I also figured out that the black screws are left-hand threaded.

Looks like this last wheel is riveted to the plate, so I'm going to clean it in place.

[mikepilk]

I have a Citizen Crystal 7, cal 5204 with 33 jewels. It looks similar to your movement.   I remember it has a hell of a lot of springs (with 4 just on the dial side). I notice you seem to have a number of springs in the tray. Ping !

It all seemed a bit over complicated for just day+date.  It put me off Citizen a bit, as Seiko do it so much more simply.

 

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

It all seemed a bit over complicated for just day+date.

I had the same thought. There are an unreasonable number of springs

Seems like a nicely made movement though, and I got it for what I think is a really good price, so I feel good about it.

I'm wondering if the yellow staining on the dial is nicotine and if it'll clean up. We'll find out together!

[ManSkirtBrew]

Hey it's been a while! I've been so busy this poor guy has just been sitting on my bench, cleaned and ready for assembly.

I tried a couple of things in a corner of the dial, and no, the yellowing is not coming off.

I did finally get the mainspring wound and installed, and the train side together. At least to the balance, which started up immediately and beautifully.

If you take a careful count, there are 6 pivots in that bridge. You can't see the jewel inside the tube for the center seconds arbor. It's a testament to both the quality of the movement and my patience that I was able to get it assembled on the first try.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Once again, a short lived victory. I used a little blob of Rodico to hold the setting lever in place while I clipped it in from the other side of the movement.

I immediately forgot about the Rodico and started winding the movement until I noticed it felt funny. Yes, I wound the Rodico into the whole train, the riveted wheel on the plate, and looks like onto the barrel arbor and inside the barrel.

Which means I have to strip the movement back down to the plate, take out all 43 of the cap jewels, and start the whole cleaning process over again.

SIGH

[mikepilk]

I hate trying to screw the setting lever screw in to the setting lever. Always a fiddly job.

.... and the setting lever screws with a shoulder which sit under the bridge. I usually forget and fit the bridge first.  

[ManSkirtBrew]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

.. and the setting lever screws with a shoulder which sit under the bridge. I usually forget and fit the bridge first.  

If it makes you feel any better, the Rodico was there because I had already fit the bridge and realized I forgot the setting lever, so I had to stick it in place and take the bridge off.

So I've now fitted those six pivots three times, and get to do it at least one more.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Well, it finally happened. When I first put the click on, I noticed the threads felt a little soft. I had to take it off and put it back on, and this time the screw just spun.

The post is very worn and there are a lot of tool marks on the parts, so I'm not entirely surprised. But I'm stuck with "now what"?

Not having a lathe, I don't think I have a whole lot of options. Ideally I'd like to make a whole new post to fix the wear (you might be able to see how oval it is in the photo), but for now I'd be happy with the screw staying in place.

• I tried a sliver of aluminum foil, but there are zero threads in the hole, so it just spins.
• Tapping for a larger screw isn't an option, since it's in a post.
• I thought about waxing the screw, then setting it in place with some superglue, so when I unscrew it there are new threads.
• I also considered finding a whole new mainplate, but that seems like overkill for this.

I'm open to more suggestions!

[AndyGSi]

What size is it?

I'd look at reaming it out to fit a tube you can then tap.

[ManSkirtBrew]

58 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

What size is it?

The OD of the post is about 0.033", or about 0.8mm. If I do ream it, I can probably just do a press fit in the plate, right?

[AndyGSi]

Yes but at that size you'd need to find a 0.8mm tube with probably 0.15mm or 0.2mm wall thickness.

What size is the hole currently?

Edit

At that size you'll be best looking for 1/32" instead of 0.8mm

Edited October 14, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Nucejoe]

 I think your citizen watch is rare a d  collectible , can  I see a side view of the case? 

[rehajm]

A punch to close the hole a bit? I had no idea that would work until I had nothing to lose..:

[nevenbekriev]

Just find a little bigger screw (in diameter) and screw it in the hole, making this way new thread in the hole. Screw it with forvard-reverse movements and put some oil.

[ManSkirtBrew]

Random eBay screw assortment saves the day again! I was able to find a screw just a hair larger that got enough purchase to tighten down without expanding the tube.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Always a great sight when the balance kicks right up. Especially in slow mo I know the amplitude is super low--it's only got a few turns of wind and the dial side of the train isn't oiled yet.

Which brings me to a question: is there such a thing as a winder for split stems? Using a screwdriver in the slot is dodgy at best, and I can't have a big ol' pin vise hanging off the side of the movement.

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Well I gave it a thorough wind and lubrication, and looks like I'm still not done on the train side.

Before I put the pallet fork in, it spun up with just a light touch of the barrel and spun back a bit after it ran down, which is usually a good sign, but clearly something's binding up.

I did reuse the old mainspring, but it seemed in fine condition, so I don't think that's the issue.

Maybe some day it'll be off my bench.

Oh and ignore those blips in the trace--that was me scooting my chair around.

I also just realized I'm missing a spring for the keyless works. I thought there should be one, so I went back to my disassembly photos and it looks like it wasn't in my parts tray.

But here it is in a disassembly video I found. Sigh.

[GuyMontag]

Did you check your cleaning fluids for the missing spring?

 

EDIT: Ah, I think you are saying that it was in the disassembly video but you didn't see it in the parts tray before cleaning? I'd check the cleaning fluid anyway, just in case it was stuck to something and you didn't see it in the parts tray. I once found a spring in the parts tray after not being able to find it, it was stuck (static electricity) on one of the side walls and I missed it when looking in the compartment the first time.

Edited October 17, 2024 by GuyMontag

[ManSkirtBrew]

1 hour ago, GuyMontag said:

Did you check your cleaning fluids for the missing spring?

 

EDIT: Ah, I think you are saying that it was in the disassembly video but you didn't see it in the parts tray before cleaning? I'd check the cleaning fluid anyway, just in case it was stuck to something and you didn't see it in the parts tray. I once found a spring in the parts tray after not being able to find it, it was stuck (static electricity) on one of the side walls and I missed it when looking in the compartment the first time.

Yes, I should have been more clear: that video still was from someone else's Youtube disassembly video. I also was very careful to photo every spring I saw, since the movement had roughly 40 of them, and didn't have a photo of that one, which makes me believe it wasn't there to begin with. The keyless works seems to work fine without it, so it's possible that whoever was in here before me scratching up every flat surface launched it into space and didn't put it back.

That said, I did check my cleaning fluids. And all of my baskets, twice. And the inside of my food dehydrator high-precision, custom made, watch parts dryer. Also ran my magnets around the floor.

Astonishingly, McCaw Company saved me the effort of making a spring by having one in stock! Hopefully I'll get this thing off my bench in 2024 (famous last words).

[GuyMontag]

I just had the exact same thing happen on an AS2066. The click spring wasn't in any of the individual baskets even though I have a video of me putting it in the basket. I went to look in the 3 large wire trays that the baskets sit in and right on the top of the mesh lid was sitting the click spring. So it must have worked its way out of the individual basket and gotten stuck on the underside of the mesh lid. I'm even using those expensive Bergeon baskets that have a very find mesh. I didn't think any spring could works it's way out of that mesh.

Edited October 18, 2024 by GuyMontag

[ManSkirtBrew]

Okay, spring has arrived and I got back to work on the low amplitude.
 

First I pulled the pallet fork, reinstalled the balance, and hit it with a puff of air. I also gave a couple turns of the stem to check on the train running free at about 0:40.

The puffer was able to turn the whole train just from the escape wheel, so I thought that was a good sign, and the balance swings free for plenty of time. The train does seem to stop a little more abruptly than I would like, so I pulled the escape wheel thinking maybe I'd bent a pivot, but I didn't.

Then I thought maybe I didn't have the barrel properly seating on the ratchet wheel that sits beneath it, so I took the entire train apart and started over. No improvement.

 

The only wildcard here for me is the 3rd wheel. It's a pair of wheels stacked on one another and can turn independently (I forget which is fixed to the staff, sorry!).

What's weird is the top wheel meshes with the 4th wheel pinions, but both wheels appear to mesh with the same center seconds pinion...so how could they ever turn independently?

 

I'm open to suggestions on what to try next. My gut is telling me the mainspring is okay and there's a binding in the train somewhere, but I don't know where else to look.

Edited October 28, 2024 by ManSkirtBrew