Friction fit balance staff not fitting

[arron]

Hi Guys,

I could use some advice on this Ball 999B 16s pocket watch.  Serial is 1B7401.  I'm replacing the friction fit balance staff.  I can get the staff shoulder punched down to within about .5 mm then it stops; even with relatively heavy blows from the hammer.  I removed the new staff and it took some good firm blows to get it out as well.  The staff is shiny (no corrosion or rust) so I don't think the staff is the problem.  The Balance wheel hole innards also look fine, but on the opposite side of the hub, the hole is not perfectly cylindrical as you can see in the 2nd photo.  I did measure both staffs before putting in the new one and they are the same diameter.  Assuming that the buggered balance hole is the problem (let me know if there is something else I should be looking at) what's the best way to make the hole true again; maybe a round file?  Thank you.

[AndyGSi]

Can't quite see but is that a crack next to the hole?

[arron]

Hi Andy, I had to look again under the scope; no it's a scuff/scratch mark.  Thanks.

[RichardHarris123]

I don't know but I  would try a smoothing broach. 

[caseback]

How did you measure the balance staffs? There can be differences between manufacturers. I've had a Buren pocketwach where the roller table was way to loose on the dcn staff. A ronda staff was a perfect fit. Just saying that you can't rely on manufacturers specs..

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I don't know but I  would try a smoothing broach. 

Generally frowned upon until we find out the exact nature of the problem and still frowned upon because you're modifying the balance wheel to fit the part.

 

4 hours ago, arron said:

I did measure both staffs before putting in the new one and they are the same diameter.  Assuming that the buggered balance hole is the problem (let me know if there is something else I should be looking at) what's the best way to make the hole true again; maybe a round file?  Thank you.

How exactly did you measure the diameter? Because measuring a balance staff you need something that's capable of measuring in a very small amount. In other words things like the near calibers with digital displays suck because they really won't measure to super fine. It's where a micrometer is much better for this.

One of the interesting problem with Hamilton the friction fit staffs are there all supposed to be exactly the same size. So whole purpose of the friction fit staff you can change the staff with no problems. You shouldn't have to use a sledgehammer to pound the staff in for instance as they should fit nicely. But aftermarket staffs sometimes seem downsizing of variations like being a hair over size.

I sometimes think staffs have been deliberately made to be over size because there supposed to be fit by the watchmaker. Unfortunately they didn't tell the watchmaker this or the people selling the parts that they are slightly oversized. Then there's a problem of if somebody either opens up the blued Hub or manages to get an oversized staff in now a regular sized staff will Not fit that is a problem.

 

 

[arron]

both of them measure .792 mm with a mitutoyo micrometer.  thanks for the replies so far.

[JohnR725]

If they both measure exactly the same what happens if you try to put the old staff back in?

Then at one time Hamilton did have replacement blued steel hubs.

 

[arron]

John, I will try that and report back. It may be a few days because I’m heading out on a road trip. Get to go to the fountain pen show in Portland this weekend. Collecting and repairing fountain pens is my other hobby.

Well, I couldn't wait until my return so I went ahead and put the old staff back in.  it took quite a lot of firm tapping but I got it to go back in but I'd say it's not 100% seated.  It took some effort to get it back out again but not as much as effort as it took to remove the new one.  

What about heating/cooling the parts, would that be useful or do i risk damaging them?

[arron]

I went ahead and used a round smoothing broach and ever so slightly smoothed the balance wheel hole.  I also added a wee bit of oil to the hole.  The staff still had a fair amount of tension going in, but after a few taps got seated.  Hopefully this works; I have yet to try it out.

[RichardHarris123]

Let us know how it goes. 

[arron]

So I've run into another issue.  The cock jewel is chipped around the diameter.  Does it go without saying that I need to replace this jewel or is it a matter of trying it to see how it runs first.  Hopefully there is enough clarity in the picture.  Thank you.

[RichardHarris123]

The jewel needs replacing, the jagged edges will cut into the pivot. 

[arron]

Thanks Richard.  That's what I figured, but I wanted to check with the more experienced folks before I went on the hunt for a new jewel.  I later discovered the corresponding plate jewel is likewise chipped.  Thanks again for for prompt advice.  Arron

[Nucejoe]

On 7/10/2024 at 7:43 PM, arron said:

 Assuming that the buggered balance hole is the problem (let me know if there is something else I should be looking at) 

 From the pic, I can't tell if the entire setting ought to be replaced or just the pierced jewel? 

 You best go by your measurements of pivot diameter and OD of the  brass jewel housing.

My experience is,  seller claim to have a part to Ball, but sent one that didn't fit. 

You might end up looking into fitting a brass housing with larger OD.

 Rgds

Edited July 17, 2024 by Nucejoe

[nevenbekriev]

Broken jewels replacement is something normal in restoring old watches. The logical thing to do here is to prepare brass bushes to fit the holes in the plate and cock and the holes of bushes to accept modern press fit jewels.  Restoring old watches is much more possible when the watchmaker is able to make parts than when He only counts on buying needed parts

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I can't tell if the entire setting ought to be replaced or just the pierced jewel?

Fortunately for a watch like this the entire jewel assembly pushes out and is replaced as one unit.

Then traditionally anytime you have a broken staff always check the jewels which you would always do anyway as party or servicing. Because traditionally when a staff breaks usually it will take out a jewel at the same time.

[Nucejoe]

 John, just googled for Ball 999B , apparently hard to find or the wrong calib.

OP might need to make fit a setting pierced right for the pivots but have to enlarge OD on mainplate.  

Ball is luxury watch, parts might be exclusively available to their own service centre.

I wonder if the jewel is rubbed in the setting, can we see other side of the setting? 

 

Just now, JohnR725 said:

Then traditionally anytime you have a broken staff always check the jewels which you would always do anyway as party or servicing. Because traditionally when a staff breaks usually it will take out a jewel at the same time.

  Good advice which often gets forgotten.

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Ball 999B

The problem with the ball watch company is they did not manufacture their own watches. They have others manufacture the watches and conceivably make changes perhaps?

So a contract with companies to make watches they put their numbers on them but the watches are still based on the original companies watch. Because the type of the balance staff this is a Hamilton and it's probably based on the parts of the Hamilton 992B. We would know if we got the staff number if it's a 992B staff or a 950 B staff which I think has some pivots size variations there are some other B series Hamiltons. So basically if we get the staff number we can figure out the balance jewel that goes with it. Then because as I said it's based on the 992B the jewel assembly just pushes out and is replaced as a unit.

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by JohnR725

[nevenbekriev]

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/profile/Funkloch/collection/view/127110

[JohnR725]

Here's a discussion notice they make references to 992B

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/ball-hamilton-999b.16237/

 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, may be it is more important for OP to solve the broken stones problem. If it was me, I would not hesitate, as I said above, to make new bushes and press-fit new stones. But may be this is not so easy for him and sourcing of the settings will be needed

The old settings are with rubbed in jewels I believe, otherwise they would not be both broken.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

 If it was me, I would not hesitate, as I said above, to make new bushes and press-fit new stones.

Hi Nev,    a vid referenced to, on a discussion here, showed rather lengthy process of making an escapewheel. Looked advanced task in tool making, I wish I could find the link to the vid,  for those who missed it. 

              Do you also make escapewheels ?   

 Please don't go making one,  just to show us, like you did the tweezers . 

 Perhaps show all the tools you use or have  with which you make stuff. Will be inspiring. 

 

TIA 

Joe

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Nucejoe

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

If it was me, I would not hesitate, as I said above, to make new bushes and press-fit new stones. But may be this is not so easy for him and sourcing of the settings will be needed

Actually I think it was you the whole thing would've been done ages ago. What you think 15 minutes to make a new jewel setting less than 45 minutes probably more like 30 to make the staff the whole job would've been done in less than an hour. That would probably be on a slow day or in case your sleep otherwise the whole thing would've been faster.

But not everyone has your skill set or the shop all set up and Hamilton did design this watch to be easy to do with replaceable parts will at least if it's is basically based on the 992B and we would find that out if we ever get a replacement staff number?

So for instance technical specifications the 992B and all their innovative improvements like the jewels in the settings

Then this is bizarre there was a seller on eBay that was manufacturing jewels which is where I was going to send somebody but apparently they've run out? That seems strange if you were manufacturing but

https://www.ebay.com/str/americanpocketwatchjewels

On 7/10/2024 at 9:13 AM, arron said:

measure both staffs before putting in the new one and they are the same diameter.

On 7/10/2024 at 4:01 PM, arron said:

both of them measure .792 mm with a mitutoyo micrometer.

One thing that was still bothering me was the over sized staff possibly? Normally when replacing a staff in American pocket watch where there will be variations is you would measure the old staff. You would look in the reference books to see what the staff is an see if you get a listing of what staff was supposed to go in the watch. Then when you get the new staff you would compare its measurements. But the problem with the B series staffs they don't list the dimension the friction part because they don't have to they're all supposed to be the same. But my experiences been the aftermarket can be slightly larger. This is why it's really nice to have access to at least the watchmaker's lathe to modify parts to fit the situation rather than changing situations that the parts.

Now this entire last section will probably fall on its face but seeing as how I have a nice micrometer and a small assortment of 992B staffs let's see what the balance seat diameter is. Okay looks like is probably wrong? First staff measures 0.79. This is a nice bench micrometer I would build to see if it went over that I wouldn't get a nice decimal point number but it was exactly 0.79. Three more staffs exactly the same but the fourth staff 0.78 and I have to guess because the needles between two marks may be like six it's a little past the halfway mark but not quite three quarters. As I said I knew from the past there were some different size staffs even though there is not supposed to exist. then the last staff is even more interesting 0.78 exactly. I was trying to remember if I have any original packages of 992B staffs and I think I do but I'll have to find out later.

 

Hamilton 992B technical data 127.pdf

[nevenbekriev]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi Nev,    a vid referenced to, on a discussion here, showed rather lengthy process of making an escapewheel. Looked advanced task in tool making, I wish I could find the link to the vid,  for those who missed it. 

              Do you also make escapewheels ?   

 Please don't go making one,  just to show us, like you did the tweezers . 

 Perhaps show all the tools you use or have  with which you make stuff. Will be inspiring. 

 

TIA 

Joe

Hi Joe,

Well it really depends on the type of the escape wheel. In case of english lever and also all clocks, etc. making escape wheel is easy as as piece of cake. Also, brass wheels is much much easier to make than steel ones. I only have one video that shows how the movement (english lever one) works with the new wheel made, and some pictures of the making itself. But, I didnt manage last night to find this video in my Youtube channel, which is strange. Didn't manage to fint the message in the russian forum, where I have shown the pictures and the video, a lot of time has passed... I still have all in my old laptop, so will show here, but give me some time.