Stem won't install in movement

[rph952]

I'm out of ideas to fix this issue! The stem won't install and wouldn't stay engaged when I had it right, I thought. This is a Seiko A201 Sportsman (vintage 1960-80) movement. I serviced it and had everything working, but then after casing and completely finished (naturally) the stem started disengaging. I set the time once and everything worked before the stem came out when I pulled on it to set the time and then couldn't get the stem to stay in. The watch had never been serviced and the stem worked when I got it. Here's what I know: the winding pinion looks good. No broken teeth or bends. The sliding pinion is fine. The yoke sits in the sliding pinion groove. The setting lever works and the spring release also works to release the stem, at least it did when it was working. The yoke "spring" is engaged properly with the small nubs on the setting lever. The setting wheel works. I tried it in both up/down directions. The minute wheel is good. I'm not sure about the stem itself. It might be bent ever so slightly at the tip. It's hard to tell from a photo. What it does: the stem won't seat all the way unless I take out all the yokes/spring yoke. I wound the mainspring a couple of times before the stem stopped working (disengaged when I pulled on it), so the click works. I did have an issue with installing the mainspring case top upside down, but fixed that. I'd try a new stem if I had a match. I suppose I can find one. Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, rph952 said:

I'm out of ideas to fix this issue! The stem won't install and wouldn't stay engaged when I had it right, I thought. This is a Seiko A201 Sportsman (vintage 1960-80) movement. I serviced it and had everything working, but then after casing and completely finished (naturally) the stem started disengaging. I set the time once and everything worked before the stem came out when I pulled on it to set the time and then couldn't get the stem to stay in. The watch had never been serviced and the stem worked when I got it. Here's what I know: the winding pinion looks good. No broken teeth or bends. The sliding pinion is fine. The yoke sits in the sliding pinion groove. The setting lever works and the spring release also works to release the stem, at least it did when it was working. The yoke "spring" is engaged properly with the small nubs on the setting lever. The setting wheel works. I tried it in both up/down directions. The minute wheel is good. I'm not sure about the stem itself. It might be bent ever so slightly at the tip. It's hard to tell from a photo. What it does: the stem won't seat all the way unless I take out all the yokes/spring yoke. I wound the mainspring a couple of times before the stem stopped working (disengaged when I pulled on it), so the click works. I did have an issue with installing the mainspring case top upside down, but fixed that. I'd try a new stem if I had a match. I suppose I can find one. Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks.

The setting lever is not in the stem pullout slot here.

[RichardHarris123]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The setting lever is not in the stem pullout slot here.

Well spotted. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

The pin that holds the stem in position is resting on the stem's winding square.

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Well spotted. 

I had to put my sunglasses on, but once i did that i saw it straight away .  

[AndyGSi]

Looks like the stem was removed in the wind position where I think these need to be removed in the set position.

[rph952]

Progress, but not quite there! I thought it was fixed when I made the adjustment to the setting lever. I left the stem in and screwed down the yoke and spring part. Everything worked perfectly. I could pull on the stem and the setting lever worked, setting time, etc. The stem did not come out. After assembly of the dial and hands, the stem is in all the way but it only turns the hands at the innermost position and pulls out all the way, only, when I try to set the time. I can't wind the mainspring. I pressed in the setting lever nub to insert the stem. I'll take off the dial/hands again to troubleshoot, but could use some suggestions. THANKS.

[AndyGSi]

Stem should be in the setting position when fitting the setting lever etc.

[HectorLooi]

I don't think it matters for Seikos. Many of them only show the setting lever tab when the crown is pushed in completely. And many Seikos can't even wind.

So far I've only found ETA 2824 and 2836 that HAVE to be put into setting position to remove and insert the stem or else serious consequences will happen. And the Swiss were just too proud to admit that it is a design flaw and pull it from the market.

[rph952]

Once again, I have the keyless works working minus the dial and hands, but I'm not sure about how to remove the stem for casing the movement. Do I pull out the stem and then press the set lever screw nub to release it? Or just press the release nub and pull out the stem. Also, what's the procedure for inserting once the movement is cased. I've never had this problem.

 

[AndyGSi]

So you can set the hands and wind as you've got it now?

[rph952]

Yes, I can adjust time and wind. After I withdraw the stem by pressing the set lever spring I can't reinsert the stem fully unless I press in the set lever spring, and then the stem goes in fine. The set lever blocks the stem and the only way to insert the stem is by pressing the set lever spring (in other words the set lever screw). Is that normal? It should work the way it is, but last time I tried casing for some reason it didn't work and only allowed me to change time, not wind.

[AndyGSi]

Try removing the stem in the setting position and then re fit to check that everything still works OK.

[rph952]

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Try removing the stem in the setting position and then re fit to check that everything still works OK.

Andy: Now the stem won't go in. Also, one of the setting lever nubs is out of position.

[AndyGSi]

So at what point did the setting lever go back to the winding position and the spring jump out?

[rph952]

24 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

So at what point did the setting lever go back to the winding position and the spring jump out?

Upon withdrawal, I think.

[AndyGSi]

Sorry but I'm at a loss as to why the lever won't stay in the set position when you remove the stem.

On the same principal I don't understand why if the stem is actually removed in the wind position why you can't just replace it.

I presume all the other wheels are installed correctly as you've had it changing time and winding.

Edit

What does the movement look like from the other side where the set lever indent is?

Edited July 12, 2024 by AndyGSi

[rph952]

10 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Sorry but I'm at a loss as to why the lever won't stay in the set position when you remove the stem.

On the same principal I don't understand why if the stem is actually removed in the wind position why you can't just replace it.

I presume all the other wheels are installed correctly as you've had it changing time and winding.

Edit

What does the movement look like from the other side where the set lever indent is?

I reinstalled the stem by pressing on the setting lever spring. I also figured the stem should go in without having to press the setting lever spring. That's the issue. I pushed hard on the stem, and anything harder would not be normal. The stem inserted properly with the spring pushed down, clearing the setting lever spring nub, and works fine. I'd like to know definitively why the stem won't insert on its own before proceeding. Photos show stem pulled out for setting time and the setting lever spring nub side. Thanks

[RichardHarris123]

The shoulders on the stem are square not bevelled, so you have to push the setting lever button to reinstall. 

[AndyGSi]

Sorry I hadn't picked up on the fact that you didn't realise you needed to press the button to insert the stem.

[rph952]

Thanks Richard, Andy, and Neverenough! It's cased and working. My process is to pull out the stem to "setting time," then removing the stem by pressing the setting lever spring. The case is cheap and funky, which contributed to my difficulty. I had to press hard to seat the stem while pressing down on the setting lever spring (I prefer the screw). Maybe the stem could be a mm longer. More later.

[rph952]

I recently serviced a Westclox 17-jewel vintage watch with a Seiko A201 movement. I don't know the exact year, but it's probably from the 1970s. Westclox dates back to the 1880s in the U.S. and built mostly clocks over the past century. The factory in Peru, Ill., burned down in 2012. I suspect the watches were something to fill their portfolio. The company had military contracts, and in the 1960s a watch similar to mine was sold with a "military" style. I bought my watch on eBay in March for $19 (including shipping) from a vendor who does not specialize in watches. The outward appearance was encouraging, although the case had hairline cracks, which I suspect were caused by aging shellac. The case was made in Hong Kong of inexpensive metals.

I've been destroying watches for more than two years, learning from YouTube videos. This was the first jeweled watch I serviced and managed to get running. I've had a couple of failures. My first success was an economy Walden pin movement.

I'm sharing lessons learned for this movement (sold on eBay). The reason I think the watch was never serviced is that all of the screws were frozen. Not rusted (the movement looked pristine), just stuck. I soaked them in small dabs of penetrating oil and a mix of transmission fluid and acetone, which finally loosened the screws. I found a couple of useful videos on YT for assembly/disassembly, but recorded my disassembly on an Andonstar microscope.

 

Disassembly was straightforward once the screws were loosened. Removing the movement from the case was my first puzzle because I'd never seen such a huge retaining ring. It was just press fit, but I didn't know that. I pried it out once I realized it wasn't locked in place. The hands had small amounts of lume, completely deteriorated, but the dial lume was intact. The dial and hands were in great condition.

I haven't sprung for a mainspring winder. My attempt to make a homemade winder using plexiglas as seen on YT failed miserably. I bought a new mainspring after a brief search on YT. I found mainspring documentation online, so I knew the size to order, $19.64 with tax and shipping. I fiddled with the arbor thanks to my lack of experience inserting it into the mainspring, but finally got it right. I closed the case making sure it was well aligned, but discovered later I had the barrel cover on upside down! I figured out my mistake when the click spring kept popping out. The barrel cover has an almost imperceptible raised section, which goes down, not up like I thought. The raised lip was just enough to keep the ratchet wheel from being flush over the barrel cover, which has a square-shaped hole.

My biggest hassle was the train of wheels bridge. I fault the movement design to some extent. The first, second, and third wheels were easy, but the escape wheel was a problem. Its tall shaft with a small gear near the top engages with another wheel. I spent too much time trying again and again to seat the escape wheel. On top of that, the upper jewel of the escape wheel had a tiny, tiny y-shaped jewel spring that I never could put back in place. I had to use another jewel spring, a kludge job at that. By far the best jewel spring is the three-sided wavy shape (Novodiac or Kif) with three tabs that can be rotated effortlessly!

I finally got aggressive when seating the escape wheel and it fell into place so I could screw down the bridge. Meanwhile, the pallet fork wasn't easy because it's buried in the movement. While I was making adjustments, for unknown reasons the mainspring unraveled, causing the wheels to spin out of control. Last time that happened, I ruined a keyless works sliding pinion with a broken tooth, I think. Anyway, the mainspring wasn't under full tension and I got lucky nothing broke.

Along the way, I oiled as best I could, but this is an area where I need a lot more practice, especially with the jewels. They are tiny and prone to jumping away from you in the blink of an eye. This time I didn't lose any and I got some oil inside, but probably too much or too little. I got a little bit of oil onto the escape wheel, but this oiling task is way beyond my skill.

The case looked rough, and I realized, after a light polish, it needs replating. The gold immediately came off. I have nickel-plated a watch case, with amateurish results. The metal has to be polished to a high luster for a professional look. I like the gold color, so I decided to do a light polish and keep the vintage vibe.

I've documented my problems with the crown and stem, which can be reviewed here. The forum has been great for learning how watches work. There's no way I could have figured it out on my own.

When I put in the final part, the balance wheel, for the moment of truth I got a big nothing. I wound the stem a few times and finally the balance wheel started turning on its own and looked to have good amplitude, but I don't own a timegrapher.

The acrylic crystal needed some serious sanding. I used 400/600/1000/1500/2600/polywatch for a decent result.

You get what you pay for. The movement is the strongpoint, but the case reduces the value greatly. Worst, the case back is one of those that needs a lot of pressure to press fit.

Finally, it's about 2 minutes a day slow. I can live with that and I'm sure it can be improved with better oiling and beat error adjustment. But more tools are in order. Always more tools...

[rph952]

On 7/12/2024 at 12:46 PM, rph952 said:

Thanks Richard, Andy, and Neverenough! It's cased and working. My process is to pull out the stem to "setting time," then removing the stem by pressing the setting lever spring. The case is cheap and funky, which contributed to my difficulty. I had to press hard to seat the stem while pressing down on the setting lever spring (I prefer the screw). Maybe the stem could be a mm longer. More later.

I know it has been a while, but I wanted to re-service this watch since it wasn't keeping great time. Now it's zero to 2 seconds beat rate variation. But the problem discussed here is back. I can wind the mainspring but I can't set the time. The stem pulls out. With the dial off and the stem engaged, I can see the keyless works in action, and everything is perfect. The set lever engages and I can set time. It's only when I reassemble everything with the dial on that the stem comes out. I learned earlier to pull the stem out to set time mode since there's a square taper, but it still won't engage. I've done this six times, so I'm hoping someone has some ideas. It's especially frustrating because this watch needs to be assembled in such a way that I can't troubleshoot without taking off the dial. When I insert the stem and press the spring for the set lever it looks like it's engaging properly. Thanks.