Caravelle 11DP/Casio 0241/Homer training watch part 2

[durant7]

After immensely helpful posts, I completed the ST36 2x and thought it best to start a new thread.  Obscene how well the ST36 runs in all positions.  But after too much time reading forums and watching YouTube, I decided to stop observing and start doing.  Right or wrong, I improved my bench height to 38" (91cm) or a 20" (51cm) distance from chair height to DIY work surface.  Big improvement.  My best Dumonts did have a slight bend under the 10x.  Addressed.  Closing in on tool costs equal to a quality watch .

Before tearing down the 11DP I captured a lot of timegrapher data.  I will homogenize 7 readings of various orientations to Max/Max +55/-57 s/d, AMP 201/142, BE 1.5/0.8.  The worst was crown down. A dirty and perhaps worn 7J movement.  All apart now.  All parts went into a 18 bin parts bin.  Hard because I can't see into the holder when on the bench.  Might change that.  No Hairspring tack (interesting reading) but left it by its lonesome, upside down out of the way.  I believe.  I have been reading many posts in an effort to ensure I don't ask the same question or miss best practice.   But here is my current challenge and some questions.

I thought it was best practice to put the balance back in without pallet and look for the "100 beats" or was it seconds.  Anyway, mine gives about 13-15 seconds.  Using the 180 degree method, I get about 7 beats.  Poor.  I had taken the capstone out of the bottom plate for cleaning.  Decided to return that.  Both surfaces are FLAT on the capstone and it is not symmetrical but can be installed both up and down.  End shake test showed me I had way too much and I put the cap stone in the other way and to my newb eyes, moves better, no end shake.  

When I remove the balance wheel for the umpteenth time, the balance wheel/HS will remain with pivot in the balance cock when removed.  After 2 seconds...5 seconds only then does the balance wheel and HS succumb to gravity and falls down with hair spring coning, bouncing.  Balance spring "breaths" great.  Where I am kicking myself, I did NOT look closely at the HS parallel alignment to the cock and plate.  Because now the HS is not parallel and one side it getting dangerously close to rubbing the cock.  In fact sometimes it appears to be touching, other times I can see a small gap each time I put it in and out. Why does it change so?  

1. Did I blunder to not note the "side" view and only focused on documenting the "from above" view?  inspected my 17J 11DP and things are parallel.
2. Could it be magnetized?  Guess I can search for that.  HS so delicate I am not sure the cheap demag device is a good idea.
3. I attempted pegging my pivots for the first time.  They are so tiny it is hard to see how to sharpen pegwood to fit.  Maybe I mashed some pegwood fiber in the pivot.  I would not think there would be room for both. YouTube suggests this is as easy as breathing. Not!
4. 10x loupe, runs out of needed magnification to see inside the pivots.
5. Maybe....just proceed to cleaning and put it back together and confirm it is worse than it started?  There is no way to test balance wheel without pallet until all is torn down is there?
6. Cleaning will be white fuel and 99.9% IPA.  No One Dip or Hexane yet.  It is discussed in another thread, things seem to go south post cleaning.  Maybe I just clean all non shellac parts in my DIY method and to reduce variables, put back cleaning sensitive parts without cleaning.  
7. Is the pivot bent be me in tear down?  I don't see how but...the bottom pivot looks fine.  HS side hard to see.  I guess this is why I am practicing on a  $12 watch.  
8. No macro lens for iPhone yet so I cannot share photos.  If that is an A priority to continue my learning....that is next.

I'm calm.  Hate to burn one watch and not learn more.  I still need a setting lever spring so it is not like this movement was ready for its case.  All three Caravelles I have purchased on eBay have different dial and case dims.  Seikos seem a long way away!  Guess that is the fun part of the learning journey. 

 

 

[Mercurial]

Great to hear your practice with the ST36 movements went so well. The improvements to your working surface height and tweezers should really help too. 

With respect to your questions :

1. the only real sense in which it is unfortunate that you didn’t inspect the side view of the balance wheel and hairspring before disassembly is that you don’t know whether the hairspring was misaligned to begin with, or if it happened during your handling of the movement. 

 

2. Yes, it could be magnetised, and you should demagnetise all mechanical movements you service. 

Your cheap demag device is fine for demagnetising it, just do it with the balance wheel and hairspring installed on the main plate. 

This applies regardless of what demagnetiser you use. If you ever need to demagnetise a hairspring out of the movement, first wrap it in a little envelope of watch paper to keep it flat(assuming it’s been removed from the balance staff), and hold onto the envelope with tweezers to prevent it from jumping around. 

 

3. It is possible to get pegwood fibres stuck in pivot holes, particularly with jewel settings that have capstones. Always peg out capped settings with the capstone removed, then after cleaning the parts you should confirm that the jewel hole is clean and unobstructed before reassembly. 

 

4. If you get a cheap pair of magnifying reading glasses, you can boost the level of magnification. A pair of 2.5x reading glasses used with a 10x loupe will give you 25x magnification. 

 

5. I suggest cleaning the parts, carefully inspecting them, re cleaning/repairing/replacing anything found to need it and then reassemble it to see how it runs. You’ll need to get the hairspring sitting flat and true with the balance wheel as part of this process. 

You can’t perform the balance wheel tests you’re referring to without removing at minimum the pallet fork or the roller table. 

 

6. Hexane is quite toxic and there are alternatives, I’d steer clear of it. You can clean all parts of the movement with your white fuel and IPA.

White fuel will not affect shellac. IPA will only start to dissolve shellac after somewhat prolonged exposure. It’s fine to use as a rinse for all watch parts, including those with shellac. 

There is an excellent YouTube channel called “Watch Repair Tutorials” run by a talented watchmaker and excellent teacher, called Alex Hamilton. I strongly suggest that you watch his content regarding cleaning watches. There is so much user written content on forums regarding cleaning, and it’s very difficult for a beginner to tell the good information from the bad. 

 

7.  it is easy to bend or break pivots when you’re learning. Balance staff pivots are the finest in the Watch and therefore the most fragile.

If you hang the balance from a balance tack (not hard to improvise one if necessary), you should be able to look through the hairspring to inspect the upper pivot. If this doesn’t work you’ll need to remove the hairspring from the balance cock. 

To do this on a Caravelle 11DP, you need to loosen the screw that holds the hairspring stud in place, and then you can push the stud down and free of the balance cock. 

 

8.  You can hold your 10x loupe  in one hand, with whatever you want to photograph in focus, and point your iPhone camera into the loupe. It works surprisingly well. 

I hope this helps, keep it up, you’re doing well!

Mark 

Sorry for the double post, but I felt that I should add a bit more regarding your choice of cleaning solvents.

White fuel (presumably naphtha) and lighter fluid (also naphtha) is a good start for a cleaning solution, it is the main ingredient in many commercial watch cleaning fluids. 

Depending upon your choice of cleaning solution, IPA is an effective rinse, but it isn’t an appropriate rinse when cleaning with naphtha or other hydrocarbons. 

The commercial naphtha based watch cleaning products have additives to help to break down and dissolve old hardened and degraded lubricants and others to brighten the metal itself. 

You can to some extent compensate for the lack of these when using by hand cleaning using brushes and pegwood for jewels, wheels and plates and pithwood or green eveflex sticks for pivots. 

Ultrasonic cleaners are a step up from brushes. 

You then need to rinse the parts. If you are using a hydrocarbon (naphtha is a hydrocarbon) based solution for cleaning, you need a hydrocarbon based rinse. 

Water and alcohol (IPA, ethanol etc) don’t mix well with naphtha and other hydrocarbons and therefore won’t rinse them off effectively. 

You could use more clean, unused naphtha as your rinse. 

When IPA is used as a rinse, it’s used to rinse away cleaning fluids that it does mix with, such as water based cleaners. 

You can use warm soapy water as your cleaning solution, it will do a better job than naphtha alone in breaking down old oil and grease. 

Then an IPA rinse will wash away and displace the water, so the parts will dry without rusting. 

It is best to dry the parts with warm air (hairdryer, or oven set below 80C), especially if you live somewhere humid, or the cooling effect of the IPA/solvent rinse evaporating can cause water to condense on your parts, which can in turn cause rust. 

All this, and more is covered in the videos I recommend in my previous post. 

Hope that helps,

Mark 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Mercurial
Fixed typo.

[durant7]

Mark, good info.  

My attempted photo through 10x loupe.  Not the best but an effort.  As much as this sounds dumb, the HS has increased its gap from the the cock.  And, seems to spin 3 times longer.  I think I have some residual fiber from my pegging.  What is small enough to clean out these pivots? Or is this where the L&R correct cleaning product helps?  Liquid movement will ensure the pivot holes are clear?  Yup, I have 3x cheaters and the 10x Loupe.  I will have another run at examination.  Everflex green sticks.  Quick google, will have to dig deeper.  Perhaps that is the key to clean pivot holes.  

Noted on mixing Naptha based solvent and IPA, water based.  I have a gallon of Coleman White Fuel for about 15 years.  Time to use it and use as rinse.  I stumbled on a L&R Master for $20 with all original L&R jars and lids.  Just have to research basket, a topic for a different post and I am forcing myself to not get distracted by this premature acquisition and practice with my tools.

For now, the main spring will not get attention.  After I put the watch together and running, a small miracle, I don't think the main spring to be a major detractor for practice.  My plan is to have my watch maker service my main spring.  Support local small business and he always shares knowledge when I visit.

[Mercurial]

The best way to begin to get the hairspring back true in the flat and in the right position is to check its shape out of the movement and off the balance staff.

While the hairspring is restrained at the collet and stud in the movement, it is often very hard to see where the problem lies.

Remove the hairspring stud from the balance cock, remove the balance cock,  open the regulator boot (if present) to free the hairspring.

Take the balance wheel and carefully lift the hairspring collet off the staff. 

Then you can check whether the hairspring sits flat, free from the constraint of being mounted in the movement. 

If the hairspring isn’t true in the flat, or true in the round then you can correct that. 

Once you know the the hairspring is true, mount the hairspring stud to the balance cock, and check that the hairspring collet is centred over the hole jewel.

Check that the regulator pins follow the terminal curve of the hairspring and do not interfere with it for the full length of their travel.

Now you can release the hairspring stud from the balance cock again, stake the hairspring back onto the balance staff, secure the hairspring stud to the balance cock and put the balance wheel back into the movement.

If the hairspring is still out of position when back in the movement, look to adjust the hairspring stud a little higher or lower where it mounts on the balance cock.

In terms of cleaning jewel holes, use pegwood from both sides, followed by a cleaning machine (ultrasonic or otherwise), followed by careful visual inspection.

For cap jewels, place them on a piece of watchmakers paper, wet with IPA or methylated spirits, and rub a leather buff over them. Repeat on the other side of the jewel and then inspect them.

If you play with the light reflected off the capstone as you inspect it, you should be able to see the tiniest bit of contamination. A spec of dust or dried oil on a capstone can cause a watch to run very poorly.

Beware the cheap pegwood on eBay from India but for sale by some sellers in the UK and the USA. It’s worse than useless, hard to sharpen and crumbles with the slightest provocation.

I’ve found orangewood sticks sold for fingernail manicure and related work to be of excellent quality, and cheaper than quality pegwood sold for watchmakers. 

You were very lucky in to find that L&R with jars and lids for that price! eBay is one place to look for baskets  

The eveflex (not everflex) sticks I mentioned are great for cleaning pivots, but not so helpful for cleaning jewels. If you Google eveflex sticks you’ll find them, and the green ones are the ones I use for pivots.

If you haven’t looked at the YouTube videos I mentioned regarding cleaning watch parts, I can’t recommend them enough. Everything you need to know is there, and explained/demonstrated very well. 

Hope that helps,

Mark

Edited July 19, 2024 by Mercurial
Added extra details

[durant7]

Thank you Mark.  

First, yes, I have watched many of Alex's video including watch cleaning such as THIS one.  Excellent info.  Right or wrong, I opted to just clean each part as I put my 7J back together for practice on a smaller watch than the ST36.  A challenge.  My cleaning is two small jars of White Fuel and manual inspecting, more pegwood, rinse and repeat.  Slow and tedious but this is just my third reassembly ever and I think that is the bigger challenge.   (noted, my Pegwood came from Esslinger...will have to read bag.)

Removal of the HS is something in the future as I do not have a staking set. I can't imagine I would need one so early in the journey.  Hmmm.  I will start reading that material more carefully.  I figured that was YEARS out.  With any luck I might stumble on one locally like the parts cleaner  .  So for now, the HS is going to go back in as it is.  Learning.

My learning was hard this weekend.  24 hours later I am calm.  Operator error.  My current bench I put my arms up on the elevated table to assist with stability and 10x loupe which has me about 2" away from the movement.  Well...dumb me thought I had put a crown wheel and its reverse threaded scew out of harms way.  Boss called to move snowblower, grill, this and that.  15 minutes later, I go to sink to wash up and there is the crown wheel still stuck to my arm.  ARGH!  No screw to be found.  Humph!  It is time to get one of those parts holder with the plastic cover.  The 18 compartment parts tray, I cannot see into each compartment to find the "next part" and...well....bad plan.  Nothing should be sitting on the mat except the one part you are working on.  Maybe those silly round domed things with small lip has a purpose I did not fully understand.  

So...I am halted until the next junker 11DP shows up.  Which is Monday.  I hope it is not a Swiss.  Last junker had a nice little AS 1686.  It has been my daily watch for two weeks.  It would be a good problem to have. 

The good news, I got all my train wheels in, drivetrain bridge...that was work but so rewarding when finally done. Mainspring bridge and ... that was the end of the weekend for my training.  So I worked on neatening the makeshift bench while kicking myself.  Someday I will wear a watch I took to bits and rebuilt. 

As for the L&R Master.  I see baskets said to be the correct type.  Even if silly money I have such a low cost unit that an expensive (but correct) basket is my plan.  And then buy the L&R cleaner.  But that is later.  I have to conquer the strip and rebuild of a 11DP/11DO.  That is my self imposed step 2 after the ST36.  Silly how well my particular version runs!  Step 3 is to introduce proper lubrication of the 11DP/11DO and wear it for two weeks.  Step 4 is an eBay ETA 2372 for practice.   Staking set....hmmm.  Shipfitter disease seems to be spreading.  

[durant7]

Humor or foolish endeavor?   Harsh criticism welcome.  eBay tells me I have purchased 5 Caravelle watches.  Mean price of $17/each with shipping.  Horrible cost basis by most experts' standards who seem to find $17 Omegas.  The one win was a SWISS AS 1686 which I wear daily after some love and attention.  I am in this far, I am going to practice on these and practice, learn, fail, cry, curse and hopefully proudly wear one on my wrist some day.  

Naïve newb pursuit?  I will buy no more unless they are 404...he says....

Mixing and matching parts.  The one pictured below was $13 landed.  I needed a part.  I had hoped only the dial was damaged but now I know, damage on dial likely means more damage inside.  All I wanted was the main spring screw.  But....it is a 17J movement.  This tempts me to move all my 7J movement parts over to this plate/bridge.  Would the pivots be the same size?  Or is such a strategy not a good plan for a newb?  Just how interchangeable are the parts in these movements?

Thanks for your wisdom.

 

 

[AndyGSi]

They're completely interchangeable just made as 7 or 17 jewel versions.

If you look here it will show you which parts change with the associated jewel count.

https://www.emmywatch.com/db/movement/caravelle--11dp/