Why 2 piece jewel for pallet fork?

[TomG]

Working on a bulova 5AT.  Any thoughts on why the jewel for the bottom pivot on the pallet fork would be a two-piece type (cap jewel and pierced jewel)?  I was under the impression that it had to do with the oiling of that pivot, but I thought we don't ever oil pallet fork pivots!

[Nucejoe]

 You want pallets   level    with escape teeth, in DD and DU positions.

Cap stone limits axial play on fork arbour.

Rgds

 

 

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, TomG said:

Any thoughts on why the jewel for the bottom pivot on the pallet fork would be a two-piece type (cap jewel and pierced jewel)?

Generally speaking, this design is intended to reduce friction, but sometimes movement manufacturers install more jewels than needed for marketing reasons. There used to be, at least in the past, a general belief that the more jewels, the better the watch.

I don't know whether you should oil these cap jewels or not, but in this case my guess is you should.

Edited July 15, 2024 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

but sometimes movement manufacturers install more jewels than needed for marketing reasons.

The bestfit book has an example of bonus Jewels both the escape wheel and the pallet fork.

[TomG]

Thanks for the info, folks!  Any other votes for (or against) oiling it?  I had tried to find an oiling diagram for this movement, without any luck.

[caseback]

32 minutes ago, TomG said:

Thanks for the info, folks!  Any other votes for (or against) oiling it?  I had tried to find an oiling diagram for this movement, without any luck.

You seriously want to start a poll among this crowd on lubrication? 

[TomG]

Hah!  I was just about to withdraw my last question, as I found it addressed elsewhere on this site, and I didn't realize what a can of worms I was opening up!

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, TomG said:

Any other votes for (or against) oiling it?  I had tried to find an oiling diagram for this movement, without any luck.

If you look at horological literature that's available you will find very little on servicing like lubrication. This is because the literature when scanned into a PDF is primarily done for parts availability. Then it depended upon the particular watch company but a lot of them made the assumption that would know what you're supposed to be doing and they will give you a oiling chart for anything that you should already know how to oil it.

1 hour ago, TomG said:

as I found it addressed elsewhere on this site, and I didn't realize what a can of worms I was opening up!

Even give us the reference where is it covered? Then which lubrication are you going to use?

Oh and there's a easy way to know if you're doing good or bad. The general consensus of a sizable percentage of the people on this group are properly serviced watch should do at least how many degrees of amplitude? If you think lubrication is controversy then minimum acceptable amplitude well if you do wrong you won't get your minimum amplitude and your life will be terminated. Yes the group does not tolerate amplitude failure.

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, TomG said:

Thanks for the info, folks!  Any other votes for (or against) oiling it?  I had tried to find an oiling diagram for this movement, without any luck.

If none of the pros argue otherwise I'd go with Mobius 9010, although be extremely careful not to overoil. Do not cover more than 50 % of the cap jewel surface and redo if you fail. A standard 0.18mm super fine oiler may be too large, so maybe you'll need to improvise.

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

If you think lubrication is controversy then minimum acceptable amplitude well if you do wrong you won't get your minimum amplitude and your life will be terminated.

I've said it before but I say it again. Amplitude almost killed my interest in watch repair until people like John said something about investigating how well the movement kept time, and that saved my interest and kept me going.

Edited July 16, 2024 by VWatchie
Just tried to make it a little more clear

[mikepilk]

I have come across pallets with cap jewels, and wondered about whether to oil or not.

In the end I decided not to oil, as the pivot is moving through a small angle, with very little load on it.

If I did oil, I would use the tiniest drop of 9010.

[eccentric59]

I have to agree with @mikepilk on this one. The roughly 11° of travel for the pallet fork makes any lubrication advantage questionable. In a typical non-capped pallet for pivot, end shake is determined by the position of the hole jewels and the pivot shoulder will be in contact with the upper or lower jewel dependent on position. In a capped setup, the position of the cap stone determines the end shake and the pivot point will contact the cap jewel. Since the pivot point is smaller than the shoulder, theoretically less surface contact = less friction. And, while lubrication might provide an added lowering of friction initially, it becomes problematic over time as the oil dries and/or attracts dirt. 

As for shock protection, is the mass of a pallet fork enough to warrant it? 

[SwissSeiko]

Hang on, are you guys not oiling the pallet fork pivots? Have I been somehow cranking out extra amplitude somewhere else?

[mbwatch]

On 7/15/2024 at 2:12 AM, JohnR725 said:

The bestfit book has an example of bonus Jewels both the escape wheel and the pallet fork

This is the "s / c" or "c / c" designation I presume. Is that i.e. "single" or "capped"?

[nickelsilver]

"S" is for straight (pivot), "c" is for conical. Conical would be used with a cap jewel.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, mbwatch said:

This is the "s / c" or "c / c" designation I presume. Is that i.e. "single" or "capped"?

4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

"S" is for straight (pivot), "c" is for conical. Conical would be used with a cap jewel.

May be another picture out of the book

 

4 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

are you guys not oiling the pallet fork pivots?

I suppose it depends upon whose technical literature were looking at. So for instance if we were following Seiko's recommendation then yes we always oil the pivots because  that's what Seiko recommends. Unless of course we don't follow what the manufacturer recommends then maybe we would do something different. But typically if you're anywhere in the universe and asked too many lubrication questions whoever is giving the lecture will always say follow the manufacturer's recommendation because after all the manufacturer should know what they're doing and typically you would not. Unless of course you decided that the manufacturers are all totally insane and you do whatever you feel like. Which works out fine for me because I'm working on vintage watches and there are no lubrication guides on that so I can do whatever I feel like.

 

6 hours ago, mikepilk said:

In the end I decided not to oil, as the pivot is moving through a small angle, with very little load on it.

Strange I believe that's what my instructor in Switzerland said? Oh and you also forgot that all lubrication has a dampening effect. So in other words you want your pallet fork to swing really really really fast and classically putting lubrication on it prevents that from happening.  Then a course if we go back early enough to organic lubricants as the lubrication disintegrates and gets typically sticky then this would be extremely bad. Fortunately today synthetic oils typically don't get sticky but still could have a dampening effect?

6 hours ago, mikepilk said:

If I did oil, I would use the tiniest drop of 9010

What about using if you really must lubricate or about using an oil kinda designed for this? Quartz watches are interesting because when the stepping motor steps it steps typically really fast. Anything that slows it down or interferes bumps up the current consumption. Which is why originally when quartz watches came out they said no lubrication except then we had issues with that. Then the recommended lubrication but on some quartz watches I found that had issues. Then the Swiss came to the rescue with 9000 lubricants specifically designed for quartz watches which I find works exceedingly well. So if you're going to lubricate something that needs to move really really fast may be issued user oil designed for that well designed for quartz watches but still you can pretend it's a similar situation.

[RichardHarris123]

This is interesting!! If oil has a damping effect on angular momentum, then all the train wheels are affected and that will have a major impact on amplitude and power transmission.  Therefore a movement should run better without lubrication, until the pivots wear out.  Lubrication reduces friction and thus should improve movement not retard it.

I could well be wrong. 

Edited July 16, 2024 by RichardHarris123

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

This is interesting!! If oil has a damping effect on angular momentum, then all the train wheels are affected and that will have a major impact on amplitude and power transmission.  Therefore a movement should run better without lubrication, until the pivots wear out.  Lubrication reduces friction and thus should improve movement not retard it.

I could well be wrong. 

I had once suggested the group should try experiments. For instance lubricate the key less the mainspring but no other lubrication anywhere else and see what happens. I've only done extremely limited experimentation I found it quite interesting.

Then what happens if you go the other extreme what if you oil the watch with HP 1300 for instance the entire gear train including the escape wheel of course not the balance I use 9020 on the balance. This should have a dramatically bad effect or does it?

Now for you just figure out what I did with the charts I had of amplitude versus lubrication?

 

 

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

This is interesting!! If oil has a damping effect on angular momentum, then all the train wheels are affected and that will have a major impact on amplitude and power transmission.

I think it's more a case of viscosity dampening acceleration, not rate. Think of the fluid filled shock absorbers on a car. They allow the suspension to move steadily up and down at a steady rate, but dampen sudden accelerations. The train wheels are turning at a steady rate, so the oil should reduce friction and not have much dampening effect. The  pallet is accelerating back and forth, so any oil would have more of a dampening effect.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

I have to agree with @mikepilk on this one. The roughly 11° of travel for the pallet fork makes any lubrication advantage questionable. In a typical non-capped pallet for pivot, end shake is determined by the position of the hole jewels and the pivot shoulder will be in contact with the upper or lower jewel dependent on position. In a capped setup, the position of the cap stone determines the end shake and the pivot point will contact the cap jewel. Since the pivot point is smaller than the shoulder, theoretically less surface contact = less friction. And, while lubrication might provide an added lowering of friction initially, it becomes problematic over time as the oil dries and/or attracts dirt. 

As for shock protection, is the mass of a pallet fork enough to warrant it? 

Though it is only an open jewel thats capped, the pivots aren't actually protected by any shock device .

9 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Hang on, are you guys not oiling the pallet fork pivots? Have I been somehow cranking out extra amplitude somewhere else?

Must be those extra thick mainsprings that you're putting in. 

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, mikepilk said:

In the end I decided not to oil, as the pivot is moving through a small angle, with very little load on it.

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

The  pallet is accelerating back and forth, so any oil would have more of a dampening effect.

This reasoning makes a lot of sense and since you have practical experience, I join the recommendation not to oil. I have no experience myself so initially I was considering that there are two instead of one friction point. One around the pivot and one against the underside of the cap jewel. The probably erroneous thought was that a thin oil could help overcome the friction towards the cap jewel. However, the contact area between the top of the pivot and the underside of the cap jewel is of course extremely small.

John's recommendation (Moebius 9000) will be best if you decide to oil anyway, but as I said, there is probably nothing to gain from it. I just had a look at my service walkthrough for the ETA 955.112 and ETA recommends Moebius 9014 for the rotor pivots.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

This reasoning makes a lot of sense and since you have practical experience, I join the recommendation not to oil. I have no experience myself so initially I was considering that there are two instead of one friction point. One around the pivot and one against the underside of the cap jewel. The probably erroneous thought was that a thin oil could help overcome the friction towards the cap jewel. However, the contact area between the top of the pivot and the underside of the cap jewel is of course extremely small.

John's recommendation (Moebius 9000) will be best if you decide to oil anyway, but as I said, there is probably nothing to gain from it. I just had a look at my service walkthrough for the ETA 955.112 and ETA recommends Moebius 9014 for the rotor pivots.

By the use of a cap jewel the friction is already reduced compared to a non capped jewel where the pallet arbor's shoulder rides a regular jewel's surface. Its easy to see how in the case of no caps being used how the oil dampening has a detrimental effect on amplitude. I wonder what Seiko did differently to compensate for this ? More cap jewels via the dreaded diafix springs ? So as Mike states the higher torque of train wheels that are in constant revolution overcome what would be to them any insignificant oil dampening effect and the need for lubrication to prevent wear does over prioritise that. Whereas the balance and pallet only part revolve and rely heavily on low friction and acceleration to be able to work efficiently.  The balance has a helper in the hairspring, has mass and also revolves more distance, the pallet fork doesn't have much at all in it's favour to perform effectively ( poor thing, i know how it feels , somedays i feel like i dont have it in me to get up and go to work either )

[tomh207]

I would think too that the reduction in torque along the train has an influence on lubricating and lubricants choice. Hence the sometimes recommended hp1300/d5 for barrel arbor and centre wheel, 9020 for 3rd and 4th wheels with 9010 on escape and balance pivots.

 

lubrication threads are always so much fun

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

25 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Hence the sometimes recommended hp1300/d5 for barrel arbor and centre wheel, 9020 for 3rd and 4th wheels with 9010 on escape and balance pivots.

Actually for barrel arbor's I like 9504. When I was in school we use 9020 for the entire gear train. With 9010 on the balance and the escapement lubrication.

But it's always interesting to look at what watch companies recommend or even more interesting to watch companies recommend over time especially when they get in the servicing their own watches and maybe they discover that they got it wrong in the first place?

28 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

sometimes recommended hp1300/d5 for barrel arbor and centre wheel,

This becomes interesting for a number of reasons. The current trend is the use the HP oils because are modern synthetic and hence they should be preferred. But improper servicing a barrel they typically epilam everything to keep the lubrication from spreading all over the place.

Then there is my favorite the company who makes the lubrication I wonder if they know what they're doing? At the link below you get tech sheets the product catalog and the always bizarrely strange lubrication chart with recommendations of insanity.

So for instance if we download the lubrication chart. Then I'll sniff out something for you notice at the very bottom a reference to the HP oils and what kind of bearings are you supposed to use those HP oils in? Then if you're not using those particular bearings what do they recommend? The classic problem of anything related the lubrication is somebody must've had a reason to put this down here beyond amusement for John to the must've been a reason but no reason is given. So mainspring barrels don't have jewels so based on this should be using D5? Oh wait that goes against what Omega recommends and isn't Omega part of Swatch group the same as the company making the lubrication shouldn't there be a memo on this? Maybe they didn't get the memo?

 

 

 

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

[tomh207]

Interesting as always @JohnR725 , life would be so much easier with clear guidance on lubricants and lubrication. There is so much conflicting and potentially confusing information from all sort of sources these days of the internet. It must have been much easier in the days before, you done what you were taught in watchmaker school or followed the method of your master as an apprentice. Now we hunt around and find all these conflicting ideas and bring them here with the idea that someone has the magical title of watch lubrication oracle and is all knowing. I would expect in the past that people would start off with what they were taught and when a new magical Swiss unicorn tears formula came out would try it, if it suited their way of working and expected results would be kept otherwise go back to the old way until the next magical potion appears.

 

so, what am I trying to say? Start with what makes kinda logical sense to the individual and experiment as you gain experience. I don’t think there can ever be a conclusive methodology which is “the one true way” , the reality is if it works for you fine and good, if not then change something and test how it works.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

I would think too that the reduction in torque along the train has an influence on lubricating and lubricants choice. Hence the sometimes recommended hp1300/d5 for barrel arbor and centre wheel, 9020 for 3rd and 4th wheels with 9010 on escape and balance pivots.

 

lubrication threads are always so much fun

 

Tom

Thats why i ended up with four basic oil viscosities . Hmm and past party blowers and candy is probably why I've ended up with not enough energy to go to work.

12 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Interesting as always @JohnR725 , life would be so much easier with clear guidance on lubricants and lubrication. There is so much conflicting and potentially confusing information from all sort of sources these days of the internet. It must have been much easier in the days before, you done what you were taught in watchmaker school or followed the method of your master as an apprentice. Now we hunt around and find all these conflicting ideas and bring them here with the idea that someone has the magical title of watch lubrication oracle and is all knowing. I would expect in the past that people would start off with what they were taught and when a new magical Swiss unicorn tears formula came out would try it, if it suited their way of working and expected results would be kept otherwise go back to the old way until the next magical potion appears.

 

so, what am I trying to say? Start with what makes kinda logical sense to the individual and experiment as you gain experience. I don’t think there can ever be a conclusive methodology which is “the one true way” , the reality is if it works for you fine and good, if not then change something and test how it works.

 

Tom

I see it as finding a compromise . All the different ideas seem to stem from discovering the pros and and cons of each lubrication and likely their interaction with each other from component to component.  " It does this great but its not so good at that " . Then making a decision on what is the lesser of all the evils. I doubt there will ever be an all singing all dancing lube, I'm sure ones that companies claim to have developed with the use of science bluff, thats what makes money. Ive already developed one myself from pigeon poop , i just need a world renowned science geek to add his name to it.