Thoughts on crystal replacement v originality?

[tIB]

So I've come across a 6105 very much in original form - it's a beauty, albeit with some wear (which you'd expect from a watch of its age)... the crystal is far and away the worst part and while I have an aftermarket replacement on order I'm toying with keeping it as is, partly for sake of originality, partly because I have a shiny and pretty near identical 'homage' I put together a while back that I'm quite possibly going to keep for sake of sentiment. 

 

So, it's a case of would you show off the dial/hands with a replacement, keep it as is or perhaps even tidy it up as best you can (diamond polish?) and go with that? Thoughts welcome!

[AndyGSi]

Difficult to see from the photos but my opinion is that if everything is
still legible then leave as is or maybe try and give it a light polish.

Also on something like this for me would have to be an original crystal or nothing.

[eccentric59]

In my completely worthless internet opinion, I consider crystals one of those parts that need to be replaced like gaskets or mainsprings. Unless the scratches have sentimental meaning (like "this is the scratch from the hospital the day my first child was born" or "this is the scratch I got pushing the busload of nuns and puppies off the railroad crossing") I see no reason to keep what is essentially a damaged part. If originality (not authenticity) is the goal, then sure, you could keep it looking like crap or spend hours sanding/grinding/polishing the scratches out but why?

 

 

[Malocchio]

Problem with polishing is that often these hardlex crystals get chipped on the edges so it might be impossible to get satisfying results. I don't mind an aftermarket crystal but I don't mind a few scratches either. I just bought the same replacement crystal for a different Seiko model. I haven't installed it yet but it seems ok quality. Spencer Klein claims to sell very exact copies of the original, mine was some random from ebay.

[tIB]

11 minutes ago, eccentric59 said:

In my completely worthless internet opinion, I consider crystals one of those parts that need to be replaced like gaskets or mainsprings. Unless the scratches have sentimental meaning (like "this is the scratch from the hospital the day my first child was born" or "this is the scratch I got pushing the busload of nuns and puppies off the railroad crossing") I see no reason to keep what is essentially a damaged part. If originality (not authenticity) is the goal, then sure, you could keep it looking like crap or spend hours sanding/grinding/polishing the scratches out but why?

 

 

36 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Difficult to see from the photos but my opinion is that if everything is
still legible then leave as is or maybe try and give it a light polish.

Also on something like this for me would have to be an original crystal or nothing.

So both posts above pretty much outline why I'm on the fence!

Originality means something, and since I'm as sure as I can be this is the original crystal that counts for something in my yead... But yes, I didn't feel the same when replacing the gaskets (I did a bit on the bezel one, but only because I had the bezel working nice).

Maybe there's a middle ground of waiting it out to find an OG, or fitting the new one while attempting to tidy up the old one (which incidentally is my plan with the Seiko raf). 

5 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

Problem with polishing is that often these hardlex crystals get chipped on the edges so it might be impossible to get satisfying results. I don't mind an aftermarket crystal but I don't mind a few scratches either. I just bought the same replacement crystal for a different Seiko model. I haven't installed it yet but it seems ok quality. Spencer Klein claims to sell very exact copies of the original, mine was some random from ebay.

Yeah - this has a small chip so I'd be trying to get better rather than perfect, which I doubt is possible with hardlex anyway. I'll have a look at Spencer Klein's site - there's seikosis too and another guy who did type 4s and was on about doing type 2 as well. Pretty sure the one I have on order is the same dimensions as the type 4, though I'll see what it's like on arrival. 

Hard to photo but while I can live with the scratches on it I also know how much pleasure I'd get from seeing that dial/hands in HD! 

 

[RichardHarris123]

I'm with @eccentric59on this one, crystals should be replaced or polished.  Again just my opinion and others differ. 

[tIB]

2 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm with @eccentric59on this one, crystals should be replaced or polished.  Again just my opinion and others differ. 

Appreciate the input - if it was acrylic I'd definitely polywatch it so maybe I'll try polishing up that other one first with diamond paste and see how that turns out. 

[tomh207]

I would replace the crystal personally. You could retain the original crystal just in case a collector offers big money if it is all original. When I have replaced crystal and even original worn marked straps I bag them up to go to the owner with the repaired watch.

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

Have you tried to find an original Seiko Crystal?

[spectre6000]

Depends on the watch. Like cars. Some cars, matching numbers matters. Others, it doesn't. If you've got a COPO Camaro, those matching numbers are a BIG DEAL. You had to really know what you were doing to order the car that way, it was truly special, and if cared for would still be around. Anyone can pull a big block from a junkyard pickup and throw it in a basket case. Those numbers are the difference between some dude's weekend project and six figures. If you've got an air cooled VW or rotary Mazda for instance, rebuilds are just part of ownership. Nature of the beast. Matching numbers would suggest something fishy. If I come across an RX-7 or split bus with "matching numbers", I'm pretty sure the seller either doesn't have a clue or is lying, unless they can provide incontrovertible evidence.

If it's a Patek or something that's supposed to be kept in a drawer and never worn save for weddings and funerals (why bother? trade it in for a split bus or an RX-7!), then it's probably worth keeping the crystal original. I think Rolex laser etches their logo on crystals these days (not sure when that started), and you'd probably at least want one that's similarly etched. Unless that etching includes the serial number, in which case at least keep the original in the box in the closet. I think your garden variety Seiko gets worn, and is intended to be worn. Replacing a crystal is like running the bracelet through the US. It's just part of maintenance. The crystals aren't special. Service the movement, replace the crystal. Polish the case if you feel like it. Or don't. It's your watch.

[Malocchio]

Here's the one that's waiting for service. 6119-8310. Same crystal part number as 6105-8110. I think I'll change that crystal  

[tIB]

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

Have you tried to find an original Seiko Crystal?

I have and there's loads of 'NOS' out there, the problem being 99% of them are fake and at this point I don't know how to ID an original... I'll read up though. 

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

I would replace the crystal personally. You could retain the original crystal just in case a collector offers big money if it is all original. When I have replaced crystal and even original worn marked straps I bag them up to go to the owner with the repaired watch.

 

Tom

Yeah I'd definitely keep it, though this is one of my forever watches so barring misfortune it'll be mine while I'm about. 

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Depends on the watch. Like cars. Some cars, matching numbers matters. Others, it doesn't. If you've got a COPO Camaro, those matching numbers are a BIG DEAL. You had to really know what you were doing to order the car that way, it was truly special, and if cared for would still be around. Anyone can pull a big block from a junkyard pickup and throw it in a basket case. Those numbers are the difference between some dude's weekend project and six figures. If you've got an air cooled VW or rotary Mazda for instance, rebuilds are just part of ownership. Nature of the beast. Matching numbers would suggest something fishy. If I come across an RX-7 or split bus with "matching numbers", I'm pretty sure the seller either doesn't have a clue or is lying, unless they can provide incontrovertible evidence.

If it's a Patek or something that's supposed to be kept in a drawer and never worn save for weddings and funerals (why bother? trade it in for a split bus or an RX-7!), then it's probably worth keeping the crystal original. I think Rolex laser etches their logo on crystals these days (not sure when that started), and you'd probably at least want one that's similarly etched. Unless that etching includes the serial number, in which case at least keep the original in the box in the closet. I think your garden variety Seiko gets worn, and is intended to be worn. Replacing a crystal is like running the bracelet through the US. It's just part of maintenance. The crystals aren't special. Service the movement, replace the crystal. Polish the case if you feel like it. Or don't. It's your watch.

I like this post - good perspective thanks. 

[eccentric59]

Omega used to etch a little Ω on the inside of the crystal. I'm not sure if they still do that either. But, let's entertain a purely hyperbolic and ridiculous scenario.

Everyone knows the Omega Moon watch, but did you know that Neil Armstrong never took his watch out of the lunar landing module? And that it was Buzz Aldrin's watch that was the first to be on wrist on the moon? And, that was disappeared enroute to the Smithsonian and has never been recovered? So let's say I found it at a pawn shop in Newark, NJ right next to Jimmy Hoffa's gold Rolex Datejust.

My story goes that Omega provided two Speedmasters -- one for Neil and one for Buzz (for the sake of the story, Mike Collins, the command module pilot, wore a Timex).  During testing the crystal got scratched on Buzz's watch and NASA had it replaced with a new one ... possibly from Omega, but as a Govt. agency they probably went with the lowest bidder. So the whole moon thing happens and parades and history and medals and game shows and cereal boxes, etc. Now I've got the first Speedy that landed on the moon and there is a big, golf-ball sized dent in the crystal from Neil Armstrong's lunar tee-off.

Should I try and retrieve the original scratched crystal from NASA? Keep the damaged crystal that was actually on the lunar surface? Or should I just get a new crystal so the watch can once again be used as a watch?

The watch is more valuable:

A.) With all original parts, regardless of condition.

B.) In the condition it was in at time of historical achievement? 

3.) In optimal working condition regardless of the parts?

 

Now take out all the historical hyperbole and think about it as you just bought a Speedmaster in 1965 for $185 U.S. (yes, that what they sold for in 1965) and change B. to "The condition it was in after you fell in the pool on your honeymoon after too many Pina Coladas."

 

Does it change the answers? Should it change the answers? Are you fond of rhetorical questions? What is the airspeed of a coconut-laden swallow?

[tomh207]

44 minutes ago, eccentric59 said:

 

 

Does it change the answers? Should it change the answers? Are you fond of rhetorical questions? What is the airspeed of a coconut-laden swallow?

African or European?

 

Tom

[RichardHarris123]

It's very difficult, if not impossible to discern between a used and an original crystal  

[oldhippy]

It's not an antique so replacing it will not do any harm to the value. Just keep the old one. 

[spectre6000]

Seiko isn't etching these crystals. They're just glass circles with some marketing attached. The difference between NOS and new production is zilcho. You're overthinking it. If it were me, and I wanted to keep the original original, I'd just get another glass circle. If it were me and I wanted it to be something I wear without worrying about, I'd get a sapphire aftermarket crystal. Which is what is in my own Seiko.

[tIB]

31 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Seiko isn't etching these crystals. They're just glass circles with some marketing attached. The difference between NOS and new production is zilcho. You're overthinking it. If it were me, and I wanted to keep the original original, I'd just get another glass circle. If it were me and I wanted it to be something I wear without worrying about, I'd get a sapphire aftermarket crystal. Which is what is in my own Seiko.

 

43 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

It's not an antique so replacing it will not do any harm to the value. Just keep the old one. 

I think you're both probably right, albeit with the added consideration that an aftermarket one will probably sit slightly lower in the case - think mine has a type 2 fitted whereas the one that's coming is a type 4 size (and sapphire).

 

Very minor thing though and I probably am over thinking it. And antique/value wise I think a new not original crystal would actually increase its value in this case given the condition of the dial/hands. Just need to wrestle with my OCD a bit...

[AndyGSi]

3 hours ago, tIB said:

I have and there's loads of 'NOS' out there, the problem being 99% of them are fake and at this point I don't know how to ID an original... I'll read up though. 

The only way I'd trust a NOS is if it was in a Seiko packet from a place I trusted.

As a note now I know what crystal you're talking about you need to be careful with the repos
as some are better than other when it comes down to the sidewall thickness and bevel.

Edited July 18, 2024 by AndyGSi

[tIB]

3 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

The only way I'd trust a NOS is if it was in a Seiko packet from a place I trusted.

As a note now I know what crystal you're talking about you need to be careful with the repos
as some are better than other when it comes down to the sidewall thickness and bevel.

Yeah, if the one I've boughts description is accurate I should be ok, though it's a bit of a minefield. There's a guy in Holland that sells like for like type 4's that seems to have a decent rep so if the one I've got arrives wrong and I do decide to go ahead and swap out I'll try him. 

Either way I think I'll have a crack at polishing up this one too... 

[tIB]

Update time. Crystal arrived and I was a bit disappointed - dimensions/bevel was fine but it lacks the distortion of the one fitted. 

I should have stopped there, but true to form I thought I'd 'just have a look'... the good news is I had my first proper look at the dial and hands uncased, and I'm very pleased. Bad news is the crystal is out, and unfortunately the gasket can't be reused... 

Onwards - ordered a gasket for the short term (not 100% it will fit an if it does it will be the wrong colour), in the longer term I have a repro gasket and crystal on the slow boat from Australia.

At least I have my copy to wear!

[AndyGSi]

NOS EC3160s are now few and far between.

I keep buying lots of assorted Seiko Parts on the chance I'll get the odd nugget from them.

[tIB]

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

NOS EC3160s are now few and far between.

I keep buying lots of assorted Seiko Parts on the chance I'll get the odd nugget from them.

Obviously I should have left it well alone. I'm hoping that not doing still ends up being a positive...

[Malocchio]

5 hours ago, tIB said:

Onwards - ordered a gasket for the short term (not 100% it will fit an if it does it will be the wrong colour), in the longer term I have a repro gasket and crystal on the slow boat from Australia.

I suppose you ordered from VTA? For some reason I can't see his inventory anymore without changing the shipping address to Australia. Earlier I've ordered some stuff, mostly mainspring arbor jewels. Nice to see there's a good stock of gaskets too. I have many watches with hardlex waiting for me to have the time to service, I might need to order some too.

[tIB]

18 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

I suppose you ordered from VTA? For some reason I can't see his inventory anymore without changing the shipping address to Australia. Earlier I've ordered some stuff, mostly mainspring arbor jewels. Nice to see there's a good stock of gaskets too. I have many watches with hardlex waiting for me to have the time to service, I might need to order some too.

That's right - I ordered through eBay so perhaps he's doing international stuff through there? Grabbed one of his crystals too. We'll see...