Hairspring Offcenter Issue

[gpraceman]

I am working on a 1937 Elgin Grade 524 in a nice Art Deco wristwatch and have run into a hairspring issue.  I may have caused it by fumbling the balance. I lost grip on the balance cock with the balance wheel still in the movement.  The hairspring became tangled.  I was able to remove the tangle.

With the balance wheel off of the cock, the hairspring seems pretty good, but not when it is on the cock and main plate.  For those of you with good hairspring experience, do you see the issue with the hairspring?  I do notice with the outer coil, it opens up a bit before the over coil.

I've seen repair videos where the hairspring is removed from the balance wheel, placed on the cock and they manipulate the hairspring until the collet is centered over the jewel setting of the cock.  It would be a good opportunity to true and poise the balance wheel.  Those would all be firsts for me.

[rjenkinsgb]

In my not very experienced opinion, it seems to be bent inwards too far at the stud?

Another photo that just shows the entire spring and stud in the watch may help.

[praezis]

The last quarter coil before the stud must be concentric, yours is distorted.

Removing the balance wheel for adjusting the hairspring mounted on the cock (as you mentioned) is the usual procedure.

Frank

[HectorLooi]

This is a Breguet hairspring. Most of the hairspring appears ok, only the overcoil part might need some tweaking.

Unfortunately there isn't any other way to centre the collet without removing it from the balance and mounting it back on the balance cock. 

This marks a turning point in your watchmaking journey. Hairspring manipulation is advanced stuff. Are you ready to take the leap?

[spectre6000]

Like praezis said, and continuing on what I said yesterday in person, that last quarter coil should stay concentric, but placing the overcoil in the collet is a good part of what's pulling the coil. Like my doctor said, "it's possible to have two things wrong". The overcoil is also tighter than it should be OR there's a bend right at the collet. Straightening that last quarter run of the coil will actually make the off-centerness worse. You'll have to adjust first one, then t'other.

That said, there's still that wobble (being discussed in this thread for the first time), and that's at least a third malady. Before getting too tied up in this hairspring, I'd want to know what is going on there, as that may be a more existential problem that renders this issue moot.

Edited July 27, 2024 by spectre6000

[HectorLooi]

Recently I've been getting a few watches with wobbly balance wheels. I had to straighten and true them.

I think some watches have the balance wheel too close to the edge of the main plate and can get damaged if handled wrongly. I suspect some movement holders might press on the balance if not positioned with care.

What do you guys think?

[mikepilk]

It looks like you need to tweak the last bit of the overcoil, so that it follows the curve of the coils below, like this

[nevenbekriev]

Well, the spring should be manipulated where shown on the picture in order to open a little the angles (the turns) of the overcoil. This will place where it should be the final part where the regulator acts and will bring this part centered according to the hairspring.

I would do this without removing the spring from the balance, but may be for a beginner it will be better to remove it. You must be cafreful not to change the height of the overcoil above the spring body by twisting the spring where tweaked.

Edited July 27, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[Nucejoe]

 You have a concentric LOWER COIL,  so I put back the balance complete and cock on the mainplate, with

1- stud unattached to the stud holder 

 2-hairspring not in slot of the regulator arm. 

The lower coil will remain concentric because the overcoil is not attached to anything which can affect its shape.

Then take a picture of the hairspring with the movement  in face down position.       that is:      face down !        hairspring up.

Hairspring's lower-coil will be concentric as it is when not installed for being unattched. 

Since hairspring is hanging free , for being unattached , you will see the relative position of upper coil  to the regulator slot and stud hole, these relative positions shows where upper coil  ought to be , to have a concentric lower-coil when overcoil gets attached to the stud holder and ran through regulator slot. 

So you wouldn't be shooting in the dark trying to adjust the overcoil, just re-shape the overcoil such that spring be in regulator slot and the stud in stud holder.  If not perfect the lower coil will at least  keep its concentric shape. 

Minor apparently deformed coil due to the weight of stud when hanging freely  will effect the exact shape of your unattched coil , but will minimally effect its shape.  

Minor  final adjustments on the overcoil  curve will then be easier to make as they will be evident and easy to spot. 

In case I am not clear , just show a pic of overcoil with balance installed and  spring coil  hanging unattched, We can then show you what needs to be done on the pic.

This approach just guides you how to a shape the overcoil so to have a concentric lower coil.

You will have a hairspring which at least is regulatable.

Good luck

Edited July 27, 2024 by Nucejoe
correction

[gpraceman]

I appreciate all of the feedback.  The diagram from @mikepilk really helps to visualize how it should look.  I'll look at posting a photo of the stud disengaged from the balance cock.

@spectre6000 let the cat out of the bag.  Yes, the balance has more issues than just the hairspring.  It is wobbly as well.  Enough so that the balance will not run long before stopping when in the dial up and dial down positions.  It looks to be rubbing a bit on the 2nd wheel.  However, it has been running for 2 days now in the crown down position.  I do have the tools to true and poise, but those are procedures that I haven't yet attempted.  I was first going to tackle the hairspring issue.  Here's a short video of the wobble.  The roller table looks a bit wobbly as well.

If we are going for full disclosure, both regulator pins are angled noticeably towards the balance staff.  Not sure if that is going to be an issue or not.  My understanding is that they should be straight down.

I do have a couple of donor possibilities if all else fails.

Edited July 28, 2024 by gpraceman

[spectre6000]

14 hours ago, gpraceman said:

If we are going for full disclosure, both regulator pins are angled noticeably towards the balance staff.  Not sure if that is going to be an issue or not.  My understanding is that they should be straight down.

Wow. Another skeleton in that balance cock + balance's closet! Borkulizing on top of borkulation. I look forward to your success rescuing this one without resorting to robbing those donors! 

[gpraceman]

Well, I was able to get the hairspring more centered and gave a go at truing the balance.  Not perfect by far, but it has been running overnight in the dial down position.  So, some progress has been made.  I first worked on getting the hairspring shape to be more like the drawing.  Then took the hairspring off the balance wheel, mounted it to the cock and worked on getting the collet centered on the jewel setting.  What I thought were my finest tipped tweezers looked huge compared to the hairspring.

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Wow. Another skeleton in that balance cock + balance's closet! Borkulizing on top of borkulation. I look forward to your success rescuing this one without resorting to robbing those donors! 

There's been a good amount of borkulation on this movement.  I also discovered that the hairspring collet wasn't fully pressed onto the balance staff.  Also, there are some scars on the balance wheel where someone had tried to adjust beat error, right at the mouth of the collet.    So much to unbork.  Makes for some good experience on doing some advanced repairs and using some of the tools that I have acquired.  I really like the art deco watch case and want a good running movement for it, so a donor seems a good idea at this point in my watchmaking journey.

[Nucejoe]

7 hours ago, gpraceman said:

Then took the hairspring off the balance wheel, mounted it to the cock and worked on getting the collet centered on the jewel setting

I don't see the reason behind this. 

How would know that you have the lower and upper coil  at the right height?

How sure can you be that jewel setting and collet hole are aligned/ centred.

Then,  when you reinstall the spring , any readjustment on the overcoil , is likely to throws the lower one out of centre.

Right approach is adjusting the overcoil when balance is installed, so you can check the lower coil for flatness/ exact centering and spring for being in regulator slot, after every tweak. 

 

Edited July 29, 2024 by Nucejoe
grammer

[nevenbekriev]

On the video it is seen that the balance wheel 'wobbles', but the staff turhs true. So the pivots seem to be not bent. This probably means that someone replaced the staff, but didn't know what or how to do next and didn't true the balance. Was it You?

The balance has to be trued, but before that the staff riveting must be checked to ensure that it holds strong, otherwise truing is invein. Usually such 'wobbling' is caused by distorting the balance arm by punching out the old staff with rudе force, whch is bad practice ahd has been commented in different threads here. Bimetalic compensating balance truing is something special as the halfs of the balance rim are trued separately and inependantly and they have to be on the same radius and height to acheave true rotation of the rim. Then, timing isues may appear after the truing, as the diameter of the balance may slightly change. So poising has to be done after checking the rate, in order to decide if it is beter to add mass or remove in the process of poising. The roller doesn't turn true, but it is not such problem. It has to go a little bit higher on the hub, to the end.

Edited July 29, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[gpraceman]

21 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

On the video it is seen that the balance wheel 'wobbles', but the staff turhs true. So the pivots seem to be not bent. This probably means that someone replaced the staff, but didn't know what or how to do next and didn't true the balance. Was it You?

The balance has to be trued, but before that the staff riveting must be checked to ensure that it holds strong, otherwise truing is invein. Usually such 'wobbling' is caused by distorting the balance arm by punching out the old staff with rudе force, whch is bad practice ahd has been commented in different threads here. Bimetalic compensating balance truing is something special as the halfs of the balance rim are trued separately and inependantly and they have to be on the same radius and height to acheave true rotation of the rim. Then, timing isues may appear after the truing, as the diameter of the balance may slightly change. So poising has to be done after checking the rate, in order to decide if it is beter to add mass or remove in the process of poising. The roller doesn't turn true, but it is not such problem. It has to go a little bit higher on the hub, to the end.

If the balance staff was replaced, it wasn't by me.  I do think that some other novice was in here before me and maybe gave up and listed it on eBay, which is where I picked it up pretty cheap.

It looks like I should get a donor movement and swap out the balances to try to get the watch running well.  Then use the old balance for some practice on hairspring repair, truing and poising and take my time with it.

[gpraceman]

Okay, a donor balance didn't work out.  It has its own hairspring issues.  The original balance actually works better in the movement so I am looking to see if I can address its issues.  Hairspring needs a bit more work.  On the balance:

• Seems to me like the balance staff was replaced, with all of the scratches on the balance arms.
• Balance wheel does need truing
• Pivots seem fine, just need a good cleaning and polishing
• Roller table looks cockeyed from the side view.  It doesn't spin true on the balance as seen in the video I posted earlier.
• Roller table looks too high.  It seems like the top of the roller jewel may be rubbing on the guard pin of the pallet fork.
• I believe that the roller jewel is supposed to be perpendicular to the balance arms.
• Serial# on balance arms do match serial# of the movement, so it looks to be original.

So, it would seem that I need to reposition the roller table and check for clearance of the roller jewel to the guard pin, true and poise the balance wheel, clean and polish the pivots, check clearances before putting the hairspring back on, and do some more adjustment of the hairspring.  Sound right?

Edited August 12, 2024 by gpraceman

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

• Seems to me like the balance staff was replaced, with all of the scratches on the balance arms.

Maybe and maybe not. The arm scratches on the hairspring side will be from removing the collet. Scratches on the table side could have been picked up from sitting in a rough bench block or roller table removal that wasn't associated with a staff change. Any scratches made by replacing a staff if done correctly would be minimal just outside of the staff opening, note i said done correctly, on a staking stump punched out ? Haha I'm afraid to comment any further .  Could this be the start of the next installment of " PUNCHED OUT STAFF OR CUT OUT STAFF "  . 

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

• Roller table looks cockeyed from the side view.  It doesn't spin true on the balance as seen in the video I posted earlier.
• Roller table looks too high.  It seems like the top of the roller jewel may be rubbing on the guard pin of the pallet fork.

Looks straight to me.  The table is meant to be pushed home until it stops. I look for the impulse pin being midway or close to between the gaurd pin and the top of the fork horn with equal minimal endshake of both the balance and the pallet fork that keep the pin's position constant . Gaurd pin center height of the safety roller notch.

2 hours ago, gpraceman said:

• I believe that the roller jewel is supposed to be perpendicular to the balance arms.

Straight up and down, looks nice when it is positioned between 2 balance arms, apparently that isn't a critical feature. 

[gpraceman]

I managed to get the roller table off of the balance staff.  I wonder if they had roller table fit issues onto the balance staff and machined it down a bit.  Went too far and used a triangular stake to peen the roller table to fit tighter.

On top of that, I was using a bit of rodico to clean off the roller jewel and noticed that it would wiggle around.  So, add to this mess a loose roller jewel.

Not sure if I should just throw in the towel and try another donor.

[Neverenoughwatches]

57 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

Not sure if I should just throw in the towel and try another donor.

thats just not how we learn matey. There are watches that i have been forwards and backwards with for a couple of years, i avoid where i can swapping non basic parts out. Take a break and come back to it later 

[caseback]

Perhaps, and not unlikely, the balance staff has been replaced at one time and the replacement staff was not a good match for the original roller table. Instead of getting a better fitting balance staff, the  roller table, although completely innocent, was then given a beating.

Yes, there are stakes specifically intended to do that, but it's not good practice imo and can cause the roller table to wobble.

Options?

- nursing the roller table back to healh and replacing the balance staff with a proper one;

- finding another roller table that might fit?

- ?

 

[nevenbekriev]

Nothing is wrong with this roller table. The stone is loose? put a piece of shellac on the top and heat the table until it melts.

[praezis]

3 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Nothing is wrong with this roller table.

May be too much forgiveness! How about the severe cut in the safety roller? 

[SwissSeiko]

14 minutes ago, praezis said:

May be too much forgiveness! How about the severe cut in the safety roller? 

doesnt affect the watch. as long as the impulse jewel interacts with the fork correctly and the roller table doesn't rub on anything, the rest doesn't matter. You can really mar up and bend a roller table, but as long as the impulse it correct, it'll run just fine. Doesn't need to even be perfectly level

[rehajm]

11 hours ago, gpraceman said:

Went too far and used a triangular stake to peen the roller table to fit tighter.

That's a bingo...but as mentioned above you can examine the interaction of the jewel with the fork to see if it, ah...poses a problem...

Edited August 15, 2024 by rehajm

[praezis]

1 hour ago, SwissSeiko said:

doesnt affect the watch. as long as the impulse jewel interacts with the fork correctly and the roller table doesn't rub on anything, the rest doesn't matter. You can really mar up and bend a roller table, but as long as the impulse it correct, it'll run just fine. Doesn't need to even be perfectly level

You neglect the safety dart / safety roller function! There is more than just impulse pin / fork action …

Frank