Why do i suddenly have rust and what to do about it? Pallet fork staff and balance spring and staff covered in rust suddenly! (Didn't want to mix the two threads.)

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

You have a cross contamination. You need to change all the fluids. 

Definitely sounds like Col's cleaning solution has picked something up. Was this something you experienced occasionally OH when you were working ?  This happened to me a little while ago , a clear non fluid substance between hairspring coils.

[oldhippy]

Yes but not causing rust. The cleaner fluid went a milky colour, never found out what caused it apart it must have been something on the watch movement.  

[HectorLooi]

I have experienced contamination of my L&R #111 recently too. A sticky gum was formed and it settled on the bottom of the bottle and all over the watch parts. It doesn't clean off easily, even washing the bottle with detergent and running water doesn't remove it. Benzine and lighter fluid only smears the layer. The only thing that removes it is 95% denatured alcohol.

I haven't figured out what caused the reaction yet. I suspect that it might be caused by cleaning a quartz movement that had leaked battery juice on it. The alkali must have reacted with the oleic acid in the #111.

I'll probably keep some of my exhausted cleaners and experiment on them.

[rjenkinsgb]

I've just tested the IPA again, in case I was confusing myself - I have tried different solvents at times to get away from the purple methylated spirit colour. (I now have industrial type, clear, denatured alcohol).

This is dewaxed shellac in electronics cleaning grade 99.7% IPA; totally dissolved:

It is slower dissolving than with denatured alcohol, but using IPA as a cleaner, it will be dissolving some amount of shellac with each wash.

 

Re. the L&R 111 turning white, that happens if it is mixed with water, it forms a milky emulsion. I've seen that when the stuff has dripped in to the water outside the solvent pot, removing items from the ultrasonic cleaner.

I've not seen the coating effect on things with watches, but I have seen a similar effect in machine tools, using emulsified oil coolant - which used watch cleaner may replicate, an emulsifiable solvent with oil dissolved in it?

That stuff can dry and leave something similar to burned-on cooking oil, a thick gooey gel-like stuff that's near impossible to remove! The only thing that removes the stuff on machines is more, fresh, coolant emulsion.

 

[AndyGSi]

It makes sense that IPA dissolves Shellac as this is what's sometimes used when making French Polish.

Edited Spelling Mistake

Edited August 7, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Birbdad]

3 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Yes but not causing rust. The cleaner fluid went a milky colour, never found out what caused it apart it must have been something on the watch movement.  

So keep in mind this was my bench solvent i I washed these in and not part of my normal naphtha>Ipa>Ipa>Ipa  wash routine. I used the perchloroethylene bench solvent for shellacked parts due to the insistence that ipa will destroy my shellacked parts.

The only thing that i can think that could have gotten into it is moisture from the air. Basically I took a break from watchmaking my nearly nearly airtight benzine jar for months and months, maybe only half a centimeter evaporated off and i didnt' think much of it and just topped it off to work on this watch. 

Not only did it rust two parts but i've been having a comedy of errors with this watch i'm working on and low amp. 

It rusted my original balance and pallet fork, but now i'm seeing it also deposited a thick but nearly invisible waxy residue that neither fresh perc or naphtha and a q tip could get off, so that's on my balance cock and probably new pallet fork, hence the amplitude issue.

At the recommendation of my other watchmaking place that has their professionals, iv'e been told to put the balance on the mainplate and put it and my pallet fork through my normal 4 stage wash/rinse cycle.

The rust makes sense to me if moisture got in and settled in the bottom or contaminated my perc bench solvent jar...this waxy residue...i have no clue what this is. Does perc spoil? Is it a reaction between the water, the trace oils in it and the perc? 

This is something i'd love to know.

 

12 hours ago, VWatchie said:

This has been fiercely debated over the years. As a result of practical experience I’m in the camp of those never letting IPA anywhere near shellac.

Recently someone suggested that only dewaxed shellac is immune to IPA. I haven’t investigated that yet but will eventually do.

So both here and my other space have seasoned professional watchmakers. 

Not a single person there believes ipa unless heated to very hot damages shellac and not a single person here believes it doesn't

I'm gonna get to the bottom of this and see for myself.

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

See, this debate is silly and useless. Of course, alcohol and IPA will dissolve shellac. But it will take some time.

First of all, I believe alcohol in watchmaking is used for getting rid of the water after rinsing the parts in distilled/dejonised water. This is when water based cleaning solutions are used. The procedure is: solution - water - alcohol - petrol. Pure Petrol (benzine, hexane) is the last instance. I know You call it 'naphta', but in my country we call this way the diesel... Rinsing in water is for 10 sec, and then alcohol - another 10 sec.

What is the reason for using Petrol - IPA - IPA - IPA procedure? What is the logic?

If You are frightened to loose the adjustment of the pallet fork, then first use peg wood stick to carefully clean the surfaces of the pallets and then soft brush the whole pallet fork with pure petrol. That's all. Don't put it in ultrasound at all.

The correct thing is to learn to adjust the pallets, then one will never fear of destroying shellac. Now You try to keep on every price the shellac untouched , but if something is wrong with the pallets position, then You bravely will replace the entire pallet fork and believe this is OK. Then You will ask why the amplitude is decreased... But do You know how to check if the new pallet fork acts in this specific movement correctly???

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

See, this debate is silly and useless. Of course, alcohol and IPA will dissolve shellac. But it will take some time.

First of all, I believe alcohol in watchmaking is used for getting rid of the water after rinsing the parts in distilled/dejonised water. This is when water based cleaning solutions are used. The procedure is: solution - water - alcohol - petrol. Pure Petrol (benzine, hexane) is the last instance. I know You call it 'naphta', but in my country we call this way the diesel... Rinsing in water is for 10 sec, and then alcohol - another 10 sec.

What is the reason for using Petrol - IPA - IPA - IPA procedure? What is the logic?

If You are frightened to loose the adjustment of the pallet fork, then first use peg wood stick to carefully clean the surfaces of the pallets and then soft brush the whole pallet fork with pure petrol. That's all. Don't put it in ultrasound at all.

The correct thing is to learn to adjust the pallets, then one will never fear of destroying shellac. Now You try to keep on every price the shellac untouched , but if something is wrong with the pallets position, then You bravely will replace the entire pallet fork and believe this is OK. Then You will ask why the amplitude is decreased... But do You know how to check if the new pallet fork acts in this specific movement correctly???

You made that pretty simple Nev . General proceedure though is petrol-petrol-petrol-alcohol ( IPA, meths or ethanol ) and if you dont wanna risk that shallac then bloody clean those parts by hand

[RichardHarris123]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

petrol-petrol-petrol-alcohol ( IPA, meths or ethano

Sounds like a typical nights drinking to me!

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Sounds like a typical nights drinking to me!

Not going on a bender with you then

8 hours ago, Birbdad said:

So keep in mind this was my bench solvent i I washed these in and not part of my normal naphtha>Ipa>Ipa>Ipa  wash routine. I used the perchloroethylene bench solvent for shellacked parts due to the insistence that ipa will destroy my shellacked parts.

The only thing that i can think that could have gotten into it is moisture from the air. Basically I took a break from watchmaking my nearly nearly airtight benzine jar for months and months, maybe only half a centimeter evaporated off and i didnt' think much of it and just topped it off to work on this watch. 

Not only did it rust two parts but i've been having a comedy of errors with this watch i'm working on and low amp. 

It rusted my original balance and pallet fork, but now i'm seeing it also deposited a thick but nearly invisible waxy residue that neither fresh perc or naphtha and a q tip could get off, so that's on my balance cock and probably new pallet fork, hence the amplitude issue.

At the recommendation of my other watchmaking place that has their professionals, iv'e been told to put the balance on the mainplate and put it and my pallet fork through my normal 4 stage wash/rinse cycle.

The rust makes sense to me if moisture got in and settled in the bottom or contaminated my perc bench solvent jar...this waxy residue...i have no clue what this is. Does perc spoil? Is it a reaction between the water, the trace oils in it and the perc? 

This is something i'd love to know.

 

So both here and my other space have seasoned professional watchmakers. 

Not a single person there believes ipa unless heated to very hot damages shellac and not a single person here believes it doesn't

I'm gonna get to the bottom of this and see for myself.

 

 

Not sure where you're getting that information from that IPA has to very hot and soaked for long periods Col.  I've put the question to 2 watch facebook groups and not one person has said that IPA does NOT dissolve shellac. Its been tested  here a few times and our Rob has just dissolved shellac in it , It absolutely does, but lets not overlook the time factor,  how long does it take to rinse parts ?  Just a few seconds maybe 10 seconds.  

[nickelsilver]

There should be a pinned post on alcohol.

 

For many years my cleaning machine was a brilliant machine made by Greiner. First bath, water based cleaner, ultrasonic, fluid agitated by pump running through a filter (magnet in filter too!).

 

Second bath is isopropyl alcohol. The way the "baskets" were set up the fork and balance were on their own set. They went in for 30s, then to hot air stream. The rest of the movement went in, 30s later push a button and the alcohol emptys into the built in distiller, and 6m later the bath is flowing (another circulating pump) with clean alcohol.

 

Great setup. Sometimes I'd forget a fork in the alcohol for 30m or so, usually OK, sometimes it did strip the shellac. No biggie, reapply shellac. 99/100 or even more often the stones are a light friction fit so haven't moved. Most roller jewels younger than 60-70 years old are also frictioned, with a bit of shellac. In 15+ years one roller jewel came out of a 110+ year old watch, definitely because I left it in for at least an hour (and the alcohol is quite warm, coming from the distiller). The jewel was found in the filter for the distiller- yes another filter. Greiner made great stuff.

 

Last century I learned very quickly that iso alcohol is sloooow to dissolve shellac. Ethanol, way quicker, and heated ethanol, way way quicker. Back then if I wanted to move pallet stones I usually stripped all the shellac, got them positioned, the reshellaced. Nowadays I do it with the original shellac in place. But if I was out of ethanol, it was a tedious process to remove with iso.

 

I await 5 weeks from now when a new discussion on alcohol, the different types, and shellac comes up again. 2 weeks?

 

As for French polish, most folks use some form of ethanol, either pure or denatured. It dissolves shellac so much better and faster. But I've read of folks using 99% iso too. There's probably woodworking forums with never ending discussion of this too.

 

But as a pro, with 25+ years in, I can say isopropyl is crap at dissolving shellac, ethanol is great.

 

 

[HectorLooi]

My question would be how pure is your isopropyl alcohol?

During the peak of the Covid pandemic, there was a worldwide shortage of isopropyl alcohol. Did some unscrupulous vendors adulterate their isopropyl alcohol with denatured alcohol?

Maybe that explains why different members are getting different results when cleaning with isopropyl alcohol. 

P.S. If I remember correctly, woodworkers dissolved shellac in methanol. Ethanol was for drinking.

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

But as a pro, with 25+ years in, I can say isopropyl is crap at dissolving shellac

Yes indeed! In my experience, most often it only softens the shellac and makes it soggy, which in my opinion is undesirable even though it may not affect the performance of the movement. How much IPA affect shellac I believe depends on the type and age of the shellac. I tried to dissolve the shellac from a 60-year-old Omega 268 using pure IPA, which was basically impossible. It only softened it somewhat. I've had decent results removing shellac using acetone. I have methylated spirits from Cousins but I can't recall that it was more efficient than acetone, at least not at room temperature.

17 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

if you dont wanna risk that shallac then bloody clean those parts by hand

Excellent advice (except for the "bloody" part)!  Not being a pro, it takes me a long time to reset and shellac pallet stones. It's not just worth it if the locking depth is already perfect and the shellac is in good condition, and cleaning by hand is done in a few minutes.

[Birbdad]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:16 PM, nevenbekriev said:

 

What is the reason for using Petrol - IPA - IPA - IPA procedure? What is the logic?

 

People here told me when i was starting out to do this as well as a few other people say this is a good low cost starting method to clean parts. It seems to work. The logic being the naphtha does a decent job of cleaning but leaves it's own residue and three rinse cycles of ipa gets rid of all of it and does a solid job of degreasing. I'm certainly open to trying something new. 

 

 

On 8/7/2024 at 3:16 PM, nevenbekriev said:

See, this debate is silly and useless. Of course, alcohol and IPA will dissolve shellac. But it will take some time.

 

See below. I post in two places, both think the other is crazy for thinking it does or doesn't.

On 8/7/2024 at 3:41 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

You made that pretty simple Nev . General proceedure though is petrol-petrol-petrol-alcohol ( IPA, meths or ethanol ) and if you dont wanna risk that shallac then bloody clean those parts by hand

I was cleaning them by hand in my bench solvent. Then this thread happened lol. 

On 8/7/2024 at 5:25 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Not sure where you're getting that information from that IPA has to very hot and soaked for long periods Col.  I've put the question to 2 watch facebook groups and not one person has said that IPA does NOT dissolve shellac. Its been tested  here a few times and our Rob has just dissolved shellac in it , It absolutely does, but lets not overlook the time factor,  how long does it take to rinse parts ?  Just a few seconds maybe 10 seconds.  

So i'm in two watchmaker spaces, here and a discord group. The discord group is mostly composed of professionals working in switzerland. ALl of then think you guys are idiots for thinking ipa is a risk to shellac and all of the people here think they're idiots for thinking it does not
Generally when i ask a question i post it here and there. I get sometimes five conflicting answers there and five here. Then i just do my best.

On 8/7/2024 at 10:00 PM, HectorLooi said:

My question would be how pure is your isopropyl alcohol?

During the peak of the Covid pandemic, there was a worldwide shortage of isopropyl alcohol. Did some unscrupulous vendors adulterate their isopropyl alcohol with denatured alcohol?

Maybe that explains why different members are getting different results when cleaning with isopropyl alcohol. 

P.S. If I remember correctly, woodworkers dissolved shellac in methanol. Ethanol was for drinking.

99.9%

Edited August 12, 2024 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

People here told me when i was starting out to do this as well as a few other people say this is a good low cost starting method to clean parts. It seems to work. The logic being the naphtha does a decent job of cleaning but leaves it's own residue and three rinse cycles of ipa gets rid of all of it and does a solid job of degreasing. I'm certainly open to trying something new. 

 

 

See below. I post in two places, both think the other is crazy for thinking it does or doesn't.

I was cleaning them by hand in my bench solvent. Then this thread happened lol. 

So i'm in two watchmaker spaces, here and a discord group. The discord group is mostly composed of professionals working in switzerland. ALl of then think you guys are idiots for thinking ipa is a risk to shellac and all of the people here think they're idiots for thinking it does not
Generally when i ask a question i post it here and there. I get sometimes five conflicting answers there and five here. Then i just do my best.

99.9%

Haha, its a risk if its not used in a risk free way

[HectorLooi]

The watchmakers in Switzerland only use IPA as a final rinse to remove the oil based solvents.

And their IPA is not 99.9% Real lab reagent grade IPA is very expensive, usually over $100 per gallon. I doubt you're not using that.

@nickelsilver, a watchmaker in Switzerland, says he had a Greiner watch cleaning machine that had a built in distiller to clean up and reuse the last stage IPA solution. A simple distillation process can only produce a 91% IPA concentration.

I believe all Swiss watchmakers use a rotary type cleaning machine and some have an additional ultrasonic bath in the 1st stage cleaning tank. Rotary machines have a spin cycle after every stage to remove all the solution that may be trapped in gear pinions and jewel holes and other nook and crannies. And after the last stage IPA rinse, it is spun dry and immediately goes into a heated dryer. So the contact time with IPA is never more than 3 mins.

The shellaced parts are never ultrasound in IPA, just swirled vigorously for 3 minutes and dried immediately. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

The watchmakers in Switzerland only use IPA as a final rinse to remove the oil based solvents.

And their IPA is not 99.9% Real lab reagent grade IPA is very expensive, usually over $100 per gallon. I doubt you're not using that.

@nickelsilver, a watchmaker in Switzerland, says he had a Greiner watch cleaning machine that had a built in distiller to clean up and reuse the last stage IPA solution. A simple distillation process can only produce a 91% IPA concentration.

I believe all Swiss watchmakers use a rotary type cleaning machine and some have an additional ultrasonic bath in the 1st stage cleaning tank. Rotary machines have a spin cycle after every stage to remove all the solution that may be trapped in gear pinions and jewel holes and other nook and crannies. And after the last stage IPA rinse, it is spun dry and immediately goes into a heated dryer. So the contact time with IPA is never more than 3 mins.

The shellaced parts are never ultrasound in IPA, just swirled vigorously for 3 minutes and dried immediately. 

and there lays a big variable- what pros do and what hobbyists do. Good research Hector , where there are variables there will also be conflicting answers. Unless the process is constant how can views possibly be constant.

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

The watchmakers in Switzerland only use IPA as a final rinse to remove the oil based solvents.

That is true for a certain enthusiast repairer in Sweden as well 

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

The shellaced parts are never ultrasound in IPA, just swirled vigorously for 3 minutes and dried immediately.

Yes, that's exactly how I do it, but only for 1.5 minutes and in my experience it always softens the shellac to a varying degree. That's why I always clean the pallets by hand.

[CYCLOPS]

there are different kinds of shellac, I hope we are using the correct one, I have had some from school for years, did you know shellac is used in candy and other food products....