Budget watch cleaning problems

[AxelSLK]

Hello,

After a few months of looking at wristwatch revival and after receiving a few vintage watches from my grandpa I decided to get into this whole shizzle that is watch servicing/repairing. I quickly realized that this rabbit hole is more like the Mariana trench ..

 I started off with buying the bare minimum of what was needed for a watch repair and thought that I would just figure it out along the way. I got some 99.9 IPA and thought that would do ok as a cleaner.

I Tried it out on my first watch and it did okay, but I obviously understand that just a brush, some pegwood and IPA wouldn’t do the trick to properly clean a watch.

since then I have been googling like a madman but couldn’t really find the advice fitting my needs so I thought I would give this a shot. 

Now I warn you for the upcoming part, I suspect I will get some hate for what is coming.

 I found a teapot in a local store that had a basket that you could spin, acquired some jars that fitted but couldn’t really find any advice on a good and easy cleaning solution so after some googling I found that some people actually used some type of dish soap and distilled water in an ultrasonic cleaner so I thought I would give it a try.
 

So what I did was pre-cleaning with IPA, brush and pegwood. Then I went on to the jar with distilled water, a tiny bit of soap and some IPA then I had 3 rinse jars with 99.9% IPA and finished it up with a hair dryer at some distance. Now if this has ruined the movement, it is what it is, I felt like it was worth a shot and to all of you that probably know better than me, I am sorry for trying it.
 

Now we get to my question. I am not sure if I was completely pleased with the cleaning. Everything came out looking really clean apart from the crown and stem that I didn’t pre-clean just to see how good it would work, turns out the oil and whatever was still on there caked up to some white looking stuff (not much at all but it was visible if I looked really closely). Now I wonder how I can tweak this setup for a better result.

I guess an chepo ultrasonic with soap and water then 3 jars of IPA rinse would be a bit better right? The only issue with this setup is that I don’t fully trust the ultrasonic cleaner for the movement parts, I have read about some mixed results. I guess proper solution would be ideal and I was planning on getting an ultrasonic someday anyways but it was more intended for the bracelets etc and it feels like it would be a waste of cleaning solution to use it for both unless I get two.

The second option is to get a good cleaning solution like L&R extra fine which I read somewhere would work better than an ultrasonic even without a proper cleaning machine . The issue with this is that I can’t find it in my country, not on amazon either. What I did find however is elma red 1:9 and some other stuff. Could that work well on my setup or should I try to get hold of the L&R stuff? And do you think a good cleaning solution would be enough with just spinning it in a jar by hand?

Third option??? (Can’t afford a proper machine right now but I have been looking at a lab stirrer haha)

 

Sorry for this wall of text. I am also sorry for bringing up watch cleaning, I know that it has been mentioned 1000times but I guess that you who gets angry at this could just look the other way this time haha.

I am really new to watchmaking but I really enjoy it, unfortunately I don’t have the money right now to buy the stuff I want/need so I am trying to be a bit creative.

 

Any help would be really appreciated. 
 

Thanks

[tomh207]

Have a search on here for DIY cleaning machines, lots of ideas and innovative solutions.

 

Tom

[AxelSLK]

19 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Have a search on here for DIY cleaning machines, lots of ideas and innovative solutions.

 

Tom

Yeah I have and sure it seems like a really good and fun solution but a lot of them require equipment that is not easily accessible for me, some might actually cost quite a lot (not close to a real machine) but that makes me question if it could be better or just as good to buy a cheapo ultrasonic instead of a more expensive lab stirrer or similar.

 

or do you have any examples of easier and cheaper DIY cleaning machines?

[tomh207]

Many of us use a 3 jar ultrasonic regimen, preferably not the $10 jewlery cleaning devices, (they are not ultrasonic). There are many discussions here on that subject too.

some cannot afford or find a watch cleaning machine, some just do this for fun and there is no reason you can’t be successful cleaning by hand.

 

Tom

[AxelSLK]

53 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Many of us use a 3 jar ultrasonic regimen, preferably not the $10 jewlery cleaning devices, (they are not ultrasonic). There are many discussions here on that subject too.

some cannot afford or find a watch cleaning machine, some just do this for fun and there is no reason you can’t be successful cleaning by hand.

 

Tom

Yeah might have to dig in to that a bit more.

Jupp you are absolutely right about that.  Might just wait a bit and give the ultrasonic a try. Someday I might even go towards a diy machine but it will probably be some time.

thanks for your input Tom. Just out of curiosity, do you have any current watch projects you are working on?

[tomh207]

At the moment I am working on restoring/resurrecting old watchmaker tools and procrastinating a lot mixed with thinking about making useful watchmaking tools. so maybe not the best to ask for advice to fix a watch. 
 

Tom

[AxelSLK]

37 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

At the moment I am working on restoring/resurrecting old watchmaker tools and procrastinating a lot mixed with thinking about making useful watchmaking tools. so maybe not the best to ask for advice to fix a watch. 
 

Tom

Haha well one of my colleagues always says that “if you think about work, you are working” so I would say that you are really on to something

But since you are into tools, any recommendations on cheap mainspring winders? I bought the cheap Chinese ones…

I actually thought of trying to modify them a bit so they actually work. I have seen some people drilling a hole and replacing the arbor with something like a staple. 
 

Also found some 3d printed ones on ebay that was really interesting but they felt a bit expensive for 3d printed stuff.

[JohnL]

I got a couple of the 3d printed ones printed. Including postage and VAT (which I didn't expect as the price wasn't listed as not including VAT) it was more expensive than I expected, but they've worked reasonably well. I did pare off the 'entry' to the main spring chamber to reduce the angle slightly and make it smoother when winding in the spring- particularly when inserting the bridle. 

If you can find somewhere that will print them at better than standard density and doesn't charge a fortune for postage etc. they're worth a shot. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, AxelSLK said:

or do you have any examples of easier and cheaper DIY cleaning machines?

Be good to know your budget Axel then we can point you in the right direction matey. 

[AxelSLK]

13 minutes ago, JohnL said:

I got a couple of the 3d printed ones printed. Including postage and VAT (which I didn't expect as the price wasn't listed as not including VAT) it was more expensive than I expected, but they've worked reasonably well. I did pare off the 'entry' to the main spring chamber to reduce the angle slightly and make it smoother when winding in the spring- particularly when inserting the bridle. 

If you can find somewhere that will print them at better than standard density and doesn't charge a fortune for postage etc. they're worth a shot. 

Okey so you didn’t buy it from the guy on ebay who originally created them? 
 

That’s actually not a bad idea could definitely be worth a shot. Did you have them print the complete set or just a few sizes?

 

[AxelSLK]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Be good to know your budget Axel then we can point you in the right direction matey. 

Haha until the paycheck arrives on the 23rd it’s about 0

I was actually hoping to save as much as possible on the cleaning stuff so I could focus on the other stuff that is needed firstly (mainspring winders, jewelling tools, staking set, etc). For the near future I was thinking no more than 2-300euro for cleaning stuff.

[JohnL]

I just got a couple printed in the sizes I was interested in. I got the files to print here https://github.com/vishnu350/rs-mainspring-winder, along with all the instructions on how to print them etc. You'll find the STL files for the various parts of the winder in the rs-winder.zip file. I think the recommendation is to go for a size about 5% smaller than the diameter of your mainspring barrel. I got a 9.5 and a 10 for a 10mm and 10.5 mm barrels.

For an axle I found a broken drill bit does the trick. I happen to have a few in various diameters. 

I'd recommend reading up on them a bit first, and watching some of the videos. I bookmarked this discussion at the time I got mine. It's got information on their development, printing and, if memory serves, how people use them. 

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by JohnL
bad grammar, maybe misleading as well

[RichardHarris123]

17 minutes ago, AxelSLK said:

was actually hoping to save as much as possible on the cleaning stuff so I could focus on the other stuff that is needed firstly (mainspring winders, jewelling tools, staking set, etc).

You don't always need a mainspring winder or a jeweling tool but you always need good cleaning. 

[mbwatch]

11 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

mainspring winders, jewelling tools, staking set

You can also go a very long way without a staking set unless you intend to spend a lot of time on vintage pocket watches or other very old timepieces. You won't need it often if you're mostly working on wristwatches from the 1950's onward.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, AxelSLK said:

Haha until the paycheck arrives on the 23rd it’s about 0

I was actually hoping to save as much as possible on the cleaning stuff so I could focus on the other stuff that is needed firstly (mainspring winders, jewelling tools, staking set, etc). For the near future I was thinking no more than 2-300euro for cleaning stuff.

Ok so to start, I've stopped using proprietary cleaners, i used to use elma waterless pro ammoniated . First off you have to be careful with ammoniated cleaners, it makes the parts nice and shiney but it can also start eating into brass once the recommended cleaning period has expired.And brass pitting seemed  more noticable when cleaning in a US with it. Mirror drop testing it doesn't dry and left a sticky mess on the mirror. Alternatively i use parafin now also called Kerosene in other countries.  Very cheap at around £10 for 4 litres, imo a good petroleum based solution that lifts oil and grease easily, this also doesn't dry even with heat but wipes off to leave a clean surface. For rinsing off the cleaner i use 99.5% IPA, most of us here do, that runs at about £18 for 5 litres . So for under £30 supplys enough clean and rinse to last a year at least for hobbyists. I find these 2 leave the parts cleaned well and jewels sparkling if the cleaning process is correct. My preclean is pegging , scraping and sponging off dirt, no solutions.  Depending on what mood I'm  in , i will hand clean everything,  clean in a mini US i have or use one of my homemade rotary cleaners, i think I'm starting number 5 soon .

[mbwatch]

34 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i think I'm starting number 5 soon .

We are going to need a photo of them all lined up

[Waggy]

8 hours ago, JohnL said:

I just got a couple printed

I just printed out a set of 3D printed winders, I have a half set of Bergeon winders which cover about 90% of my needs, but sometimes I cannot get the right combination of arbor size and barrel size, and tipping over $50 each for something I will rarely use is difficult (especially at the moment as I am between jobs) so I decided to give the printed ones a try. I had a few old barrels with springs so have had a few practice attempts, like using the Bergeon winders my first results were not good, but I am starting to get the knack of it now. There are a few videos out there (see the github links) which explain how to use these winders and are a must and will cut the learning curve in half, and practice on some old barrels/springs. I wouldn't say I am ready to go at a 'real' watch yet, I need some more practice attempts before I am confident enough to commit to a real watch. However, on the whole I am impressed by these 3D printed winders, I'm not sure if they would ever by my go-to preference  in place of my Bergeon winders - but who can tell, but I will use these instead of adding to my Bergeon set and especially for oddball sizes which you can print as and when needed.

[JohnL]

I'm going to presume you're not buying IPA in a pharmacy if it's £18 for 5L. I paid eighteen euro for 500 ml six months ago. I suspect if it was cheaper my cleaning routine would be less troublesome. 

I'm using Fairy liquid in deionised water (anything else is deemed hazardous and cousins won't ship it) followed by a quick rinse in deionised water followed by two rinses in IPA. The rinse in water is just a quick rinse swirling the water around the little baskets. The rest are in an US at different time lengths. Alex Hamilton has some good videos (well, they appear good to me) on different liquids and cleaning methods.

[Waggy]

12 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Many of us use a 3 jar ultrasonic regimen

I used an ultrasonic cleaner for well over a year, and used jars to contain the solvents (detergent, naphtha and IPA) all in all I had good results, the only issue was the time it takes to go through each of the cycles. I still use the same ultrasonic for cases and bracelets. Mine is the same as this one and I got it from Amazon:

I know there are much more expensive ones out there, which do sweeps and degassing etc, but in my humble opinion this one will do you fine

[rjenkinsgb]

12 hours ago, AxelSLK said:

Now I wonder how I can tweak this setup for a better result.

This is what I'm using at present, until I get time to complete the full automatic machine I'm working on.

I have a fairly big, cheap ultrasonic cleaner with a coarse mesh basket that has folding handles to lift it out.

I use this setup inside that, with enough water in the cleaner tank to cover 2/3 the way up the plastic containers. Both the large stainless mesh basket and the screw together brass holders are from ebay - I have five of the larger brass ones & ten smaller.

 The plastic post are cut from 750ml drinks bottles, they are the perfect size for the basket!

(I keep the wash & rinse fluids in jam jars when not in use).

If you lift the big basket out the cleaner, you can swap the inner basket to a different liquid container & lower the whole lot back in quickly and with little mess.

I do use the L&R cleaning solutions, as after several attempts with different solvents, that's the only type I found worked really well and did not leave things sticky.

It does brighten brass, but after the first clean it seems to have no further noticeable effect; the brass mesh containers have been in the stuff for hours by now & don't show any pitting.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, mbwatch said:

We are going to need a photo of them all lined up

Haha, they've all been shown at one time or another in diy and homemade rotary cleaning threads, but ok i can line up my basic boy cleaners . They dont sing or dance but they do clean, and all came in  at between £20 -£30. I have big hopes for no. 5 having a better wash cycle, timed with forward and reverse spin cycles thats coming out at around £30. 

19 minutes ago, JohnL said:

I'm going to presume you're not buying IPA in a pharmacy if it's £18 for 5L. I paid eighteen euro for 500 ml six months ago. I suspect if it was cheaper my cleaning routine would be less troublesome. 

 

[Waggy]

@JohnL I feel your pain on cleaning fluids, I make my own (I reverse engineered the 'real' cleaning solutions) as I cannot buy locally or get them shipped, maybe you can get IPA on Amazon, which is where I get mine, but make sure it's +99%. Here is my cleaning process for ultrasonic:

1. 10 mins @ 60 deg C in fairy liquid/water
2. Place baskets and large parts on paper towel for 5 mins to soak up the bulk of the water/detergent
3. Very quick dip in used/old IPA to remove water (+/-10 seconds)
4. 10 mins @ 60 deg C in naphtha (see below)
5. Remove small basket containing pallet fork (and anything else with shellac) and dry separately - I use a different basket for these so I can spot them easily
6. Remove balance from main plate and soak in small jar of Hexane (substitute for one-dip)
7. Everything else 10 mins @ 60 deg C in IPA
8. Leave out to dry (takes << 5 mins)

The Naphtha I get from Amazon also, its sold as paint thinner but on checking the MSDS sheets it is very pure naphtha (if there is such a thing as naphtha is a soup of compounds)

The Naphtha I get from Amazon

Just a quick note that the 'real' watch cleaning fluids are 60-80% naphtha (see MSDS sheets) and is simply lighter fluid which you will hear some people talking about so you can be confident that it is as watch safe as the commercial specialist watch cleaning fluids.

Edited August 9, 2024 by Waggy

[JohnL]

@Waggy My routine is very similar. I'm using lighter fluid for Naphtha, I've only use a few brands and settled on one. I have a couple of tea infusers on a length of string. The small baskets get a bit of spin in those before the first IPA. I was getting flash rust on the train wheels if I left them resting on tissue on a warm surface between the water and the IPA. After the last IPA clean I put them in front of a small fan heater on tissue and watchmakers paper for a few minutes.

Given I couldn't get various liquids such as Essence of Renata or Elma Red from Cousins I presumed IPA and Naphtha from Amazon wouldn't be a runner, but I'll take a look. Thank you. 

@Neverenoughwatches Thank you. I'll look further into buying IPA online. Hopefully my previous searches weren't extensive enough. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

46 minutes ago, JohnL said:

I'm going to presume you're not buying IPA in a pharmacy if it's £18 for 5L. I paid eighteen euro for 500 ml six months ago. I suspect if it was cheaper my cleaning routine would be less troublesome. 

I'm using Fairy liquid in deionised water (anything else is deemed hazardous and cousins won't ship it) followed by a quick rinse in deionised water followed by two rinses in IPA. The rinse in water is just a quick rinse swirling the water around the little baskets. The rest are in an US at different time lengths. Alex Hamilton has some good videos (well, they appear good to me) on different liquids and cleaning methods.

If you cant get IPA John then try brake cleaner. I think its better than IPA, when ive used all my IPA I'll be switching to Holts

11 minutes ago, JohnL said:

I was getting flash rust on the train wheels if I left them resting on tissue on a warm surface between the water and the IPA. After the last IPA clean I

The very reason i don't use waterbased cleaners, you have to get the parts dunked in IPA quickly to get that water soaked up. Problem with this if you have a set jar of IPA that you use its water content is increasing each time you rinse.

[Waggy]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'll be switching to Holts

FYI, and maybe save you a few pennies! The Holts and Klean-strip are the same thing (see CAS numbers below from MSDS sheets) actually the Klean strip appears to be a more pure version of the naphtha.