Bent balance wheel pinion

[dnhb]

I've been presented for repair a no-name watch wherein I find a balance wheel with a bent pinion. It's lying about 30° from the vertical. What, pray, are my options....

[rehajm]

32 minutes ago, dnhb said:

I've been presented for repair a no-name watch wherein I find a balance wheel with a bent pinion. It's lying about 30° from the vertical. What, pray, are my options....

If you don’t know your options…present it back?

Seriously, the top of the list is replace the balance or staff and there’s the low probability of success bending with a seitz pivot tool but with that amount of bend would it even fit in a jewel?

…and just because the watch is no name doesn’t mean the movement is anonymous. Maybe there’s a replacement out there?

Edited August 14, 2024 by rehajm

[tomh207]

A lot depends on the movement and your skill level and of course tools. You could try getting a pair of pinion straightening tweezers and heat them up to try and massage the pivot straight. I do have those but never used them, with the amount of bend you have there I would expect the pivot to break off during the attempt.

next option is to identify the movement and search for a balance complete. Failing that is making a balance staff on a lathe.

 

Tom

[watchweasol]

Hi   Both @tomh207 and @rehajm  have given you sterling advice, easiest way out of the hole is as said return the watch the alternative you already know. Try to identify the watch. Post pictures of the watch on the site. I may just identifiable through the resources of the members.

[dnhb]

2 hours ago, tomh207 said:

You could try getting a pair of pinion straightening tweezers and heat them up ....next option is to identify the movement and search for a balance complete. Failing that is making a balance staff on a lathe.

Thanks for responding,  Tom. The last is beyond me; the penultimate I've drawn a blank on. Pending my acquisition of such tweezers I've placed the pivot in a tightish hole in my staking tool & will attempt to gently massage it straighter, possibly loading it bit by bit allowing gravity to play its part over time and moving it to slightly tighter holes if this procedure has any noticeable effect. I sense that whatever I do I must do it very slowly.....

[AndyGSi]

20 minutes ago, dnhb said:

The last is beyond me;

I presume you're referring to identifying the movement?

Most movements are marked but if you post photos there's a chance we can identify it and advise on what spares are available.

 

[dnhb]

22 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

I presume you're referring to identifying the movement?

Most movements are marked but if you post photos there's a chance we can identify it and advise on what spares are available.

 

No. The last was making one on a lathe. I previously posted photos under my "Any ideas" topic of 5 August on the 'identification' forum. The only additional mark I've since found is the number 5 under the balance wheel bridge. Thanks for your interest.

On 8/14/2024 at 9:19 PM, watchweasol said:

Hi   Both @tomh207 and @rehajm  have given you sterling advice, easiest way out of the hole is as said return the watch the alternative you already know. Try to identify the watch. Post pictures of the watch on the site. I may just identifiable through the resources of the members.

I previously posted photos under my "Any ideas" topic of 5 August on the 'identification' forum. The only additional mark I've since found is the number 5 under the balance wheel bridge. Thanks for your interest.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, dnhb said:

No. The last was making one on a lathe. I previously posted photos under my "Any ideas" topic of 5 August on the 'identification' forum. The only additional mark I've since found is the number 5 under the balance wheel bridge. Thanks for your interest.

I previously posted photos under my "Any ideas" topic of 5 August on the 'identification' forum. The only additional mark I've since found is the number 5 under the balance wheel bridge. Thanks for your interest.

To identify your ladies watch, the dial needs to be removed, measure the mainplate's diameter and show us the parts of the keyless works.

[dnhb]

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

To identify your ladies watch, the dial needs to be removed, measure the mainplate's diameter and show us the parts of the keyless works.

Thanks for yr interest. As per my "Any Ideas" post, the diameter is 24mm. Keyless works area shown in attached photo.

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, dnhb said:

Thanks for yr interest. As per my "Any Ideas" post, the diameter is 24mm. Keyless works area shown in attached photo.

So matey what we really need to see is the accurate shape of the keyless works components . Setting lever , the yoke, maybe some kind of spring part that is hidden beneath that we can't see. So to save us having to ask for more pictures,  just take everything oit around the stem and lay them for all to see.

Lay those parts out so one of us can play clue-do with calibre catalogs. We all love a good " who dunnit "

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

more pictures

It looks vintage and it would've been nice to see the other side. So gathering up our crystal balls it looks vintage and vintage means we probably won't be little use the fingerprint system.

 

On 8/14/2024 at 12:34 PM, dnhb said:

I find a balance wheel with a bent pinion

I assume you mean bent pivot? Yes there are some balance wheels that have A pinion but those are rather rare.

 

On 8/14/2024 at 12:34 PM, dnhb said:

It's lying about 30° from the vertical. What, pray, are my options....

30 is quite a bit I'm amazed jewels aren't broken. We've covered this before here's a link there is a special tool. Yes and watch repair there's always a special tool usually at a special price that we can't afford.

 

On 8/14/2024 at 3:26 PM, dnhb said:

Pending my acquisition of such tweezers I've placed the pivot in a tightish hole in my staking tool & will attempt to gently massage it straighter, possibly loading it bit by bit allowing gravity to play its part over time and moving it to slightly tighter holes if this procedure has any noticeable effect. I sense that whatever I do I must do it very slowly.....

Basically that's what the discussion up above is although staking since usually don't have the right size holes for pivots.

[dnhb]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I assume you mean bent pivot? 

Yes, sorry for the confusion.

11 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So to save us having to ask for more pictures,  just take everything oit around the stem and lay them for all to see.

Understood. However the owner wants to collect the watch tomorrow PM & I'm not sure I'll have time to disassemble these parts & get them back together in time.....

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, dnhb said:

Yes, sorry for the confusion.

Understood. However the owner wants to collect the watch tomorrow PM & I'm not sure I'll have time to disassemble these parts & get them back together in time.....

? ?? Will you have it fixed ?

[JohnR725]

24 minutes ago, dnhb said:

However the owner wants to collect the watch tomorrow PM & I'm not sure I'll have time to disassemble these parts & get them back together in time.....

I'm a bit confused here? If you're running a watch repair business is extremely important to estimate incoming watches for possibly time and definitely for what is going to cost to repair. Currently you appear to still be in the evaluating the watch for repair mode and the customers coming back tomorrow? You're going to have to work on that aspect because you're going to have an unhappy customer tomorrow when the watch is running as promised plus you're probably going to have to bump the cost up because you didn't estimate for the damage found In other words conceivably going to need a new balance staff if you can even find the balance staffs you may have to make one. So tomorrow you get to enlighten your customer on what you estimate it's going to cost to repair versus having them pick up a finished watch as that might be impossible to do.

 

[dnhb]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

? ?? Will you have it fixed ?

No. But she wants it back in its case & I want to ensure it's properly assembled in case someone else addresses its problems in the future.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm a bit confused here? If you're running a watch repair business is extremely important to estimate incoming watches for possibly time and definitely for what is going to cost....

 

I'm not running a business: I don't have customers (or Custards!). I get asked to see if I can fix Clocks & Watches by local people, charity shops etc. I do so out of interest & the satisfaction of being of help in a small way....

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, dnhb said:

No. But she wants it back in its case & I want to ensure it's properly assembled in case someone else addresses its problems in the future.

I'm not running a business: I don't have customers (or Custards!). I get asked to see if I can fix Clocks & Watches by local people, charity shops etc. I do so out of interest & the satisfaction of being of help in a small way....

Ah ok, some folk dont realise how much time you need , to them its just a simple wind up time telling thingy.

[dnhb]

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

? ?? Will you have it fixed ?

Re Identification: attached is a closer view of the keyless works including the spring in case this helps...

48 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ah ok, some folk dont realise how much time you need , to them its just a simple wind up time telling thingy.

Most of the folk who approach me are understanding especially when I explain things & keep them posted re 'progress'. However, this watch's owner I would class as a Custard if I was working for Customers!!

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, dnhb said:

Re Identification: attached is a closer view of the keyless works including the spring in case this helps...

Most of the folk who approach me are understanding especially when I explain things & keep them posted re 'progress'. However, this watch's owner I would class as a Custard if I was working for Customers!!

Haha a custard ?  I have far better descriptive words for folks like this . Ok better to view them laid out separate but I'll dig out some calibre books and play clue- do for half an hour while i sup my coffee to see what i can find, though a bit pointless as its going home soon .

[dnhb]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha a custard ?  I have far better descriptive words for folks like this . Ok better to view them laid out separate but I'll dig out some calibre books and play clue- do for half an hour while i sup my coffee to see what i can find, though a bit pointless as its going home soon .

I do appreciate your willingness to help.

In fact it's gone already - the C'd, in character, was early & in a rush - but if your efforts allow me to source a replacement balance I will get in touch & offer to acquire & install it.

[watchweasol]

Hi in order to progress the detective work  can you offer an approximate size in lignes or mm as it cuts down the search areas.   Thanks.

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi in order to progress the detective work  can you offer an approximate size in lignes or mm as it cuts down the search areas.   Thanks.

Found it ww , 10mins with the old bestfit and a strong cuppa. Its a Gruen 140 page 140 of part 1 , give me your thoughts. Just verifying it with a full picture before i fully commit

Was pretty easy, no setting bridge just the 2 pieces and a yoke spring that isn't shown in Bestfit, the setting lever looks like moby dick without a tail

Method in my madness yep a Gruen 140 is pretty damn close shame, we dont have the watchmaker's side 

Be interesting to know if Aegler made this.

[rjenkinsgb]

32 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Found it ww , 10mins with the old bestfit and a strong cuppa. Its a Gruen 140 page 140 of part 1 , give me your thoughts. Just verifying it with a full picture before i fully commit

I thought that too, when searching bestfit - but I'd saved the movement photo from the previous thread while having a search then, & the movement is rather different when you see the train side.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

36 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

I thought that too, when searching bestfit - but I'd saved the movement photo from the previous thread while having a search then, & the movement is rather different when you see the train side.

 

dial side is very similar , the space for the yoke spring is a little different but you're right rob the train is very different,  I'll have another look but it so close on the dial that a gruen is a good assumption .

Getting closer

[dnhb]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi in order to progress the detective work  can you offer an approximate size in lignes or mm as it cuts down the search areas.   Thanks.

I think I'd mentioned earlier that it's 24mm diameter....

17 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

dial side is very similar , the space for the yoke spring is a little different but you're right rob the train is very different,  I'll have another look but it so close on the dial that a gruen is a good assumption .

Getting closer

Yes, quite close but the Gruen 140/R27 is showing 3 screws securing the train bridge rather than just 2.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, dnhb said:

I think I'd mentioned earlier that it's 24mm diameter....

Yes, quite close but the Gruen 140/R27 is showing 3 screws securing the train bridge rather than just 2.

Different click system. I think we've established that its gruen though.