Seiko 5606A regulation problem

[rjenkinsgb]

Hi,

I've just finished rebuilding the movement for my Seiko Lord Matic, and got a problem I just cannot figure out.

With the regulator in the original position it was running at over +800 seconds per day. With it all the way to the slowest end of the travel, it's still near +300?

This was not running when I received it. The original hairspring was messed up, beyond what I wanted to risk trying to fix - the coils were binding in several places & the whole thing was off centre. I adjusted the terminal curve to centre up reasonably well but the coils were still binding, with possibly 90' amplitude (by eye) and very fast rate.

I got a new balance complete (Seiko 310-560); that looked perfect and went in without any problem & the spring now looks quite even - but the rate is still way off?

Any ideas appreciated!

 

[Nucejoe]

 In case you didn't check all shakes in gear train , balance and fork, try loosening screws to all cock and bridges, to create some end shake.

A CAP STONE MIGHT BE PRESSING ON PIVOT. 

Reclean balance setting , peg jewel holes.

Check for bent fork, misaligned pallets.

 

Rgds

 

Edited August 15, 2024 by Nucejoe
Spl

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Hi,

I've just finished rebuilding the movement for my Seiko Lord Matic, and got a problem I just cannot figure out.

With the regulator in the original position it was running at over +800 seconds per day. With it all the way to the slowest end of the travel, it's still near +300?

This was not running when I received it. The original hairspring was messed up, beyond what I wanted to risk trying to fix - the coils were binding in several places & the whole thing was off centre. I adjusted the terminal curve to centre up reasonably well but the coils were still binding, with possibly 90' amplitude (by eye) and very fast rate.

I got a new balance complete (Seiko 310-560); that looked perfect and went in without any problem & the spring now looks quite even - but the rate is still way off?

Any ideas appreciated!

 

Is your tg auto choosing the correct frequency for the movement? 

The rate still in the +

3 hz movement 21600 bph showing on your tg Rob ?

[rjenkinsgb]

It is showing 21600. I checked that against the audible frequency of the movement by counting it for ten seconds, just in case the auto speed was wrong.

I'm going to verify the end float etc. later today, though the amplitude was around 200 & seems unlikely it is something sticky & still get that?

The beat error is not good, ~5.2, but that's surely not going to throw the rate off so much? I'll have a go at that at well.

 

Examining the photos I took while dismantling the watch, I cannot see any obvious misalignment in the original hairspring? It was cleaned with the balance fitted to the main plate as usual.

The hairspring is rather smaller than usual in this & I wonder if it was affected by the ultrasonic cleaner? My old one died a few months ago (the transducer separated from the tank) and I got a much bigger and more powerful one. I've not had any problems with any other movements, but this does have an oddball spring?

[Nucejoe]

I had misrelated amplitudes in my last response , though you were getting 90 deg with the new balance.

 Is impulse jewel shellaced onto roller table in 5606 ?

Are you sure you haven't lost shellac, off pallets or perhaps impulse jewel. 

Could it be the guard pin rubbing heavy on roller table ? 

Heavy lock on pallet ?

 

[rjenkinsgb]

It's running faster than it should - wouldn't faults like that slow it down?

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

It's running faster than it should - wouldn't faults like that slow it down?

It be like running with very low wind. 

 

Another test,   there might still be dried oil left inside  chaton or on any jewel.   I pour a drop of lighter fluid on cap stone of each setting including the small ones on escape wheel or on all jewels. the fluid  finds its way to jewels  and hopefully to the chaton and temporarily softens the dried oil there, you will see the balance take off like Eurojet. Same test with a drop of petrolium fluid that doesn't evaporate quick, on escape teeth,  will show same result.

Rgds

 

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by Nucejoe

[mikepilk]

On 8/15/2024 at 7:02 PM, rjenkinsgb said:

with possibly 90' amplitude (by eye) and very fast rate.

I don't understand. What amplitude are  you seeing ?

I would assume touching/sticking coils, but unlikely with a new hairspring, unless you accidentally distorted it?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

It's running faster than it should - wouldn't faults like that slow it 

On 8/16/2024 at 4:12 AM, rjenkinsgb said:

It is showing 21600. I checked that against the audible frequency of the movement by counting it for ten seconds, just in case the auto speed was wrong.

I'm going to verify the end float etc. later today, though the amplitude was around 200 & seems unlikely it is something sticky & still get that?

The beat error is not good, ~5.2, but that's surely not going to throw the rate off so much? I'll have a go at that at well.

 

Examining the photos I took while dismantling the watch, I cannot see any obvious misalignment in the original hairspring? It was cleaned with the balance fitted to the main plate as usual.

The hairspring is rather smaller than usual in this & I wonder if it was affected by the ultrasonic cleaner? My old one died a few months ago (the transducer separated from the tank) and I got a much bigger and more powerful one. I've not had any problems with any other movements, but this does have an oddball spring?

 

Hairspring smaller than normal, have the coils enough room to breathe? I have something similar going on at the moment.  A movement with super high amplitude that was causing the coils to touch in horizontals producing high + rates, vertical positions dropped the amp 50° ish which gave the coils more contraction breathing space but plummeted the rate. Difference was around 300 between the positions. I introduced a better spaced terminal curve that seems to have improved but not quite cured the problem, main issue is the mainspring is too strong.  So just wondering if your coils are touching somewhere when contracting, what changes in the vertical positions Rob ?

4 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

It's running faster than it should - wouldn't faults like that slow it down?

As Joe tells it ,with really low amp, amps that dont register with a tg but are visibly so low the swings get faster, isochronism goes out the window.

But at 200° this wont be what you're seeing.

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I had misrelated amplitudes in my last response , though you were getting 90 deg with the new balance.

 Is impulse jewel shellaced onto roller table in 5606 ?

Are you sure you haven't lost shellac, off pallets or perhaps impulse jewel. 

Could it be the guard pin rubbing heavy on roller table ? 

Heavy lock on pallet ?

 

Rob was getting 90° with the old original spring Joe after he'd taken an axe to it to straighten it out . Personally I find a a small hatchet less destructive.

[JohnR725]

On 8/15/2024 at 8:12 PM, rjenkinsgb said:

beat error is not good, ~5.2

I'm a bit puzzled here as you can move the stud and put the watch better in beat? Then this is a four arm balance wheel views of the roller jewel corresponds to one of the arms so visually putting it in beat is usually very simple. You can look at the old balance wheel to see where the roller jewel is to get a clue.

Then as nice as microscopes are you're looking straight down which would be nice if watches were not three-dimensional. If you look in his they hairspring flap isn't touching any of the balance arms? And yes of its touching anything you'd lose amplitude.

Then would it be possible to get a picture of your timing machine in one of the dial positions and then rotating to one of the crown positions?

 

[rjenkinsgb]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm a bit puzzled here as you can move the stud and put the watch better in beat?

Thanks! I'm really glad I'd not continued with it yet - it looked like a fixed stud until I just examined it with more magnification!

OK, so I can correct the beat error easily, then take some more readings.

 

Just to confirms, the hairspring in it, that is running fast, is the brand new replacement & the amplitude is about 200. The coil spacing looks perfect, unlike the original.

 

[mikepilk]

Yes the stud moves, it's easy to adjust the beat error. Here's a pic of one of my 5606A's, showing stud and regulator pin positions with zero beat error and 0s/day.

Edited August 17, 2024 by mikepilk

[nevenbekriev]

First, it is not sure if the new balance is not assembled by the seller from parts that He had. Then, the only reason that will cause normal  balance /hairspring to go faster is (shallow) not enough drop lock of the escapement, but then the amplitude would be little bit smaller

[CYCLOPS]

maybe put the new hairspring on the old balance wheel......