Hole punch recommendations

[dnhb]

 It's time I splashed out on a mainspring hole punch, one that will allow me to create holes on the inner end of coiled Mainsprings of both watches & clocks (although maybe one tool won't handle both). I'd be grateful for recommendations, including the modalities of straight vs ratcheted plier types (if indeed the latter type exist).

[praezis]

There is no such tool as all springs come with a hole. It surely was inserted before coiling.

If your spring is broken, buy a new one 

[oldhippy]

Many old clock springs don't have holes in them. There is a tool for clock mainsprings. Any good clock material suppliers will stock them. I always made my own, heat the spring end after shaping it then use a punch to make holes and file them to the required size.   You can use the tool if a spring breaks at the end, but don't remove to much length because the clock will not run its full time. 

Edited August 18, 2024 by oldhippy

[Neverenoughwatches]

So this is a mainspring punch, of course i have one , not what you think it is for regarding watches.  As franks says,and as far as i know there is no tool for punching out the eye of a mainspring for an arbor hook to latch on watches ( maybe clocks ? OH will know that )  barring drilling the eye out and filing to shape, something i did recently and is tricky, this tool does not do that.  What it does do or did do is create an eye at the barrel wall end of the spring in conjunction with a compatible pair of pliers that cut a hook into the barrel wall itself. Fairly sure, but kind of guessing that this appertains to old pocket watches only and not wrist watches.

[praezis]

3 hours ago, dnhb said:

to create holes on the inner end

anyone read this? 

[oldhippy]

This one will do the job for clock mainsprings. 

Link how to use. https://www.m-p.co.uk/mp-spring-guide.htm

Edited August 18, 2024 by oldhippy

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

anyone read this? 

[JohnR725]

On 8/18/2024 at 6:57 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

What it does do or did do is create an eye at the barrel wall

I have some vintage catalog pages. I do believe most of them are for the barrel but it's possible especially the ones that only have one punch like at the very end and the one that looks like a tiny staking set it might actually punch a hole in the mainspring.

Typically the preferred would be to buy the right spring in the first place. Although if you are really obsessed with the end of the spring there are a variety of ways of doing it's just that their very very expensive.

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I have some vintage catalog pages. I do believe most of them are for the barrel but it's possible especially the ones that only have one punch like at the very end and the one that looks like a tiny staking set it might actually punch a hole in the mainspring.

Typically the preferred would be to buy the right spring in the first place. Although if you are really obsessed with the end of the spring there are a variety of ways of doing it's just that their very very expensive.

 

 

 

With a bit more detail the actual tools, the mainspring punch I have has 3 stakes in size progression and should have 4. My assumption is the hole is cut in stages, getting bigger. This punch also had the ability to cut a hook into the barrel  wall for the punched eye to latch. I dont believe its meant to cut a slot in thd spring to fit an arbor. I've tried and its just not possible. The other tool is a dedicated hook former for the barrel.

[oldhippy]

It seems a bit odd when just one small punch will do, if you need to make it bigger use your needle files. Watchmakers always have needle files. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

It seems a bit odd when just one small punch will do, if you need to make it bigger use your needle files. Watchmakers always have needle files. 

It was just a guess on my part OH, i figured start with the thinnest punch which is missing here and work up to the size you need. Has to be for pocket watches for these size of punches. I tried it a couple of months ago when i hatched up the inner coil of timex spring. A complete no go with this tool, i ended up drilling out a new arbor slot with a carbide drill and then sized it like you said with an escapement file. 

I may never use them but i just love old tools, i used to be the same with my joinery gear in my workshop, old and quality was the only way for me.

[dnhb]

On 8/18/2024 at 4:37 PM, oldhippy said:

This one will do the job for clock mainsprings. 

Link how to use. https://www.m-p.co.uk/mp-spring-guide.htm

I followed the link you kindly provided but found the store is closed 'till end August. In the mean time & in the light of other helpful responses to my OP, I've been looking for a set of individual hole punches which I think might give me more versatility. However, the ones I've found are only suitable for leather or at most softer metal than that comprising clock springs. Are such tools actually available & if so do you know of any sources I could approach?

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I have some vintage catalog pages. I do believe most of them are for the barrel but it's possible especially the ones that only have one punch like at the very end and the one that looks like a tiny staking set it might actually punch a hole in the mainspring.

Typically the preferred would be to buy the right spring in the first place. Although if you are really obsessed with the end of the spring there are a variety of ways of doing it's just that their very very expensive.

 

 

 

Thanks - lovely stuff! Do you have any details of the retailer/manufacturer behind these catalogues?

On 8/18/2024 at 1:33 PM, praezis said:

There is no such tool as all springs come with a hole. It surely was inserted before coiling.

If your spring is broken, buy a new one 

Of course. But I like t exploit learning opportunities!

14 hours ago, oldhippy said:

It seems a bit odd when just one small punch will do, if you need to make it bigger use your needle files. Watchmakers always have needle files. 

I've responded to your earlier post to say that I'm having trouble finding any individual punches for mainspring material! 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, dnhb said:

lovely stuff! Do you have any details of the retailer/manufacturer behind these catalogues?

https://archive.org/details/20thcenturycatal00purd/page/n5/mode/2up

It's an interesting link you can download the book of radio formats. If you figure out the proper search terminology there are other horological books here catalogs and repair books just not a huge quantity of them

Then here's a picture of an interesting tool which I'm sure does not exist anymore. It looks like at the end there is the part for putting the hooks in the barrels and then the other part is for punching the mainspring. You will note the word annealed as punching hard Springs well basically hard Springs Cannot be punched and have to be cut.

Edited August 21, 2024 by JohnR725

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

https://archive.org/details/20thcenturycatal00purd/page/n5/mode/2up

It's an interesting link you can download the book of radio formats. If you figure out the proper search terminology there are other horological books here catalogs and repair books just not a huge quantity of them

Then here's a picture of an interesting tool which I'm sure does not exist anymore. It looks like at the end there is the part for putting the hooks in the barrels and then the other part is for punching the mainspring. You will note the word annealed as punching hard Springs well basically hard Springs Cannot be punched and have to be cut.

Basically what i have but mine is older.

[JohnR725]

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then here's a picture of an interesting tool which I'm sure does not exist anymore

I find sometimes where I work can be really really strange. It was a very strange day with a strange bonus items that showed up? I was asked about the strange pair of pliers? The pliers are now residing in my bench for safekeeping. They looked vaguely familiar wonder where I've seen them before? Yes very strange day. Know the pictures not the best but I can take a different camera and get a better picture if you want to see the star wheel in the front and when I get a chance I think I'll try the thing out and see how it works. Although I'm pretty sure that in order to punish the hole in the mainspring I think the main spring steel has to be softened. For which I used to have a much better way of getting square holes in hardened steel.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I find sometimes where I work can be really really strange. It was a very strange day with a strange bonus items that showed up? I was asked about the strange pair of pliers? The pliers are now residing in my bench for safekeeping. They looked vaguely familiar wonder where I've seen them before? Yes very strange day. Know the pictures not the best but I can take a different camera and get a better picture if you want to see the star wheel in the front and when I get a chance I think I'll try the thing out and see how it works. Although I'm pretty sure that in order to punish the hole in the mainspring I think the main spring steel has to be softened. For which I used to have a much better way of getting square holes in hardened steel.

Haha the same pair you posted the day before, thats very spooky

[HectorLooi]

I just spent half an hour cutting this hole in the mainspring for a small alarm clock.

I used a diamond bur in a 5X speed increasing dental handpiece to make the hole. The diamond bur can cut through the spring in seconds. Most of the time was spent shaping the hole to the barrel hook.

I'm sure the diamond bur can make a hole in the arbor end too.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

5X speed increasing dental handpiece . 

What is this please ? Hector.

Edited August 22, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[HectorLooi]

This is a handpiece that attaches to an 'E' type micromotor. It has a 1:5 gear ratio that multiplies the speed of the motor by five times. That is to say that if the micromotor runs at 20 000 rpm, the diamond bur will be spinning at 100 000 rpm.

Most newer dental clinics use this type of handpiece instead of the air powered handpiece with that familiar whine.

 

[dnhb]

23 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I just spent half an hour cutting this hole in the mainspring for a small alarm clock.

I used a diamond bur in a 5X speed increasing dental handpiece to make the hole. The diamond bur can cut through the spring in seconds. Most of the time was spent shaping the hole to the barrel hook.

I'm sure the diamond bur can make a hole in the arbor end too.

I've managed to make the hole I needed - which prompted my OP - in the arbour end by a combination of drills & a coned burr from my Dremmel accessories - don't think it was diamond though. It took me about 4x as long as your effort! I'm still looking for some individual hole Punches for spring steel as I've decided these will give me more flexibility but I can't find any anywhere, including at specialist engineering tool suppliers.

[AndyGSi]

What size holes are you intending to punch?

[dnhb]

34 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

What size holes are you intending to punch?

Around 1 -2mm - for suspension springs & watch mainsprings - up to say 5mm for clock mainsprings.....

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

This is a handpiece that attaches to an 'E' type micromotor. It has a 1:5 gear ratio that multiplies the speed of the motor by five times. That is to say that if the micromotor runs at 20 000 rpm, the diamond bur will be spinning at 100 000 rpm.

Most newer dental clinics use this type of handpiece instead of the air powered handpiece with that familiar whine.

 

Thats a handy small sized tool, must be expensive. 

1 hour ago, dnhb said:

I've managed to make the hole I needed - which prompted my OP - in the arbour end by a combination of drills & a coned burr from my Dremmel accessories - don't think it was diamond though. It took me about 4x as long as your effort! I'm still looking for some individual hole Punches for spring steel as I've decided these will give me more flexibility but I can't find any anywhere, including at specialist engineering tool suppliers.

The problem is finding something small enough to fit the inner coils of a watch mainspring without distorting the coils, i think the only way is drill the eye out and shape it.

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, dnhb said:

Around 1 -2mm - for suspension springs & watch mainsprings - up to say 5mm for clock mainsprings.....

So what's wrong with drilling and filing as if you punched a hole you'd still have to file the shape anyway?

[dnhb]

13 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

So what's wrong with drilling and filing as if you punched a hole you'd still have to file the shape anyway?

I tend to break drills! Anyway, it would be good to have the punch option.