Pocket watch Stem removal help

[dnhb]

I'd be grateful to know if there's a way of removing the stem of this mini (31mm dia) pocket watch without dismantling the keyless works. It bears the term "PONTENET" on the dial plate by the crystal hinge.

[AndyGSi]

What's on the other side of the movement?

[nickelsilver]

Yes, the screw to release the stem will be on the other side (the slotted part in any case).

 

[JohnR725]

Oh and it does appear to be a cylinder escapement you want to pay attention to that to avoid unpleasantness things from happening. I rather enjoyed a YouTube channel who will remain nameless disassembling one of these and I was wondering if? Yes you can tell it's a cylinder because of what you see on this side. In the video I was wondering if he had let the power off and oh never mind he removes the balance wheel and escape wheel starts spinning which is an extremely bad thing to do. Yes the joys of watching YouTube watch repair where nothing bad ever really happens but it's a miracle that it does not.

We really do need a picture of the other side of the watch.

 

[dnhb]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Oh and it does appear to be a cylinder escapement....

We really do need a picture of the other side of the watch.

 

Thanks for the warning  - I'll need to look up "cylinder escapements" !

Here's a photo of the back of the movement 

[RichardHarris123]

Here's the screw to remove the stem. 

[GPrideaux]

Normally you would loosen the screw a couple of turns. Don't remove it entirely.

Also, my thoughts (for what they're worth) are that if you're fairly new to watch repair (as I am), a cylinder escapement is probably not the best place to start. I haven't done one yet, and don't feel I'll be ready to for some time.

It seems to me that cylinder escapement watches are very common on eBay so its worth being able to spot them. If a pocket watch movement is offered for under about $50 and it is not missing parts or full of rust, 80% of the time it's a cylinder escapement. Things to look for include no maker's name or caliber number on the movement or dial--they were cheap watches in their day that nobody was especially proud to be associated with. The real give-away, though, is to count to pivots of the train of wheels. A Swiss Lever escapement will have Centre Wheel, Third Wheel, Fourth Wheel and Escape Wheel pivots visible on the movement side, and there will be some space between the Escape Wheel and the Balance where the Pallet goes. A Cylinder Escapement will have one less pivot visible as there is no Pallet and the Escape Wheel interfaces directly with the cylinder on the Balance staff. If you can see the Escape Wheel, it will also have a distinctive appearance with what looks like tiny hammer heads on the end of each tooth. They're the things I look for; if I've said anything egregiously wrong I trust a more experienced member will correct me.

Edited August 26, 2024 by GPrideaux
Additional information added

[dnhb]

On 8/26/2024 at 10:17 AM, GPrideaux said:

Normally you would loosen the screw a couple of turns. Don't remove it entirely.

Also, my thoughts (for what they're worth) are that if you're fairly new to watch repair (as I am), a cylinder escapement is probably not the best place to start. I haven't done one yet, and don't feel I'll be ready to for some time.

Thanks for taking an interest. As the old joke goes re giving travel directions "I wouldn't start from here if I were you !". This is a watch a friend has asked me to look a & see if there's anything I can do, not one that I've chosen.....

[watchweasol]

Hi it’s a Swiss  five bar. Cylinder movement.so named by the fact there are five bars or cocks each holding its own wheel etc. not a watch to take on lightly. The balance wheel has no roller but the staff is cut allowing the escapement to work , the staff pivots are plugs or tampons, can be replaced but needs special tools and a lot of experience.

[mbwatch]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:14 AM, JohnR725 said:

In the video I was wondering if he had let the power off

Yup I saw that too. Five minutes of research before that disassembly wouldn't have killed him.

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Five minutes of research before that disassembly wouldn't have killed him.

 

I thought I would give the link to the offending video which by the way is the second video. But six days ago he is doing it again and yes five minutes of research but does it matter? He has close to 1 million subscribers he makes happy videos on how easy watch repair is and he definitely does not do things right but apparently those things really don't matter. Memories making entertainment videos try not to pay attention them as actual service videos

then I can't say the cylinder is my favorite watch to work on at all. Very definitely always remove the power and be extremely cautious as breaking things on this watch will be very bad for you. In fact I would actually stay away from cylinder watches as their vintage they're not usually made in outstanding quality although? There are some outstanding quality cylinders including those that have rubies cylinders. I would also stay away from those they're well out of your price range if something breaks as there will be no parts for those and fixing anything on the cylinder watch getting parts is just a big pain in the ass. 

 

okay now to the watch video that definitely do not follow his practices

 

 

 

 

 

[mbwatch]

39 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

which by the way is the second video.

Oh I was referring to the recent one, and I forgot this happened in the Breguet video too.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi it’s a Swiss  five bar. Cylinder movement.so named by the fact there are five bars or cocks each holding its own wheel etc. not a watch to take on lightly. The balance wheel has no roller but the staff is cut allowing the escapement to work , the staff pivots are plugs or tampons, can be replaced but needs special tools and a lot of experience.

i buggered up the replacement of one of the tampons a few months ago. Attempting to reposition the good one that was set too low the cylinder cracked in half. I didn't swear though so at least I'm improving that aspect of failure . 

[dnhb]

On 8/27/2024 at 3:29 PM, watchweasol said:

Hi it’s a Swiss  five bar. Cylinder movement.so named by the fact there are five bars or cocks each holding its own wheel etc. not a watch to take on lightly. The balance wheel has no roller but the staff is cut allowing the escapement to work , the staff pivots are plugs or tampons, can be replaced but needs special tools and a lot of experience.

Thank you. I've got it running but only dial down. Does this suggest anything differerent, in terms of next steps, than it wolud for a lever escapement ?

[JohnR725]

On 8/29/2024 at 11:14 AM, dnhb said:

I've got it running but only dial down. Does this suggest anything differerent, in terms of next steps, than it wolud for a lever escapement ?

it would suggest more troubleshooting on your part. In other words why is it not running dial-up? That means you get stuck checking the pivot on that end and/or the jewels. usually because the age of these watches and not necessarily known as a stellar quality watch the jewels may be a poor condition. Plus of course classically anything that's vented somebody may have worked on it before you. So I can a watch you have to look at the pivot and everything related to it

[nevenbekriev]

Whel it is a cylindre. First of all, it is not enough to have it running with no stopping, but amplitude should be at least 90 degr to be sure that it runs confidently. After disassembling, put only the balance with both the cocks on the plate and do the free oscillations test. There should be no difference in both horizontal positions and at least 50 oscillations are expected. If this is not so, then pay attention to the pivots and bearings. As this is cylindre, the axial free play of the balance (if it is big) may cause the teeth of the cylindre wheel to go away from the correct trace on the cylindre mouth, so this is one of the important things to check. Lubrication of cylindre is important here to achieve good amplitude. My experience is tat the best results gives very small amount of moebius 8020 grease only on the trace where teeth make contact with the cylindre. 

It is a lady's watch and they usually  wore them as a pendant on their necks.

[KarlvonKoln]

On 8/27/2024 at 12:45 PM, JohnR725 said:

 

 

okay now to the watch video that definitely do not follow his practices

 

 

 

 

 

Oh my heavens, @JohnR725 this fellow scared me a few times.  I happen to have a cylinder Breguet (which is either one of their more modest offerings or may be a souscription - it does not have a ruby cylinder, just a steel one like the above watch, but the construction is Breguet).  My movement is identical to this one, but the case is silver and not gold.  The difference? - I have serviced cylinder escapements before, and they do behave a little differently from levers.  It is also best to have the extra, needed tools - the special weird-looking punches that reach into the cylinder to push at the tampons, and the stumps to support the balance properly.  Watching this guy just jump in with both feet, without apparently reading a little bit about them so he'd know what he was getting into, that made me wince.  That poor watch.  
There are several things that can cause a cylinder watch to misbehave or not run at all.  And many of them are the same issues that would also stop any other kind of watch: dirt, congealed oil, wear, damage caused by carelessness or accident, or damage caused by inept repair, etc.  But one thing that comes up is *inadequate* lubrication.  Each of the escape teeth needs just a tiny smear of oil.  It's a friction-rest escapement and one must mitigate some of that friction.  And it is best to service it yearly if you are going to carry it and run it throughout that year.  Friction and wear are much more of a bane to cylinder escapements then to any other kind.
Another problem with bar movements that have this kind of suspended, hanging mainspring barrel: misalignment.  I had to bush the hole in the bridge of my Breguet because wear had caused it to tilt and bind against the center wheel, and rub the underside of the hour wheel on the other side.  Once I got it back at proper height and alignment it ran very well.
Seeing that video reminded me; I started out a little ahead of this fellow.  I'd already read quite a bit about cylinder escapements and how they worked before I was confident enough to work on one.  I was prepared for the surprises.  The poor man in the video was not.  Clearly the movement did things that surprised him.  Surprises can be a bad thing in watch repair.  I am holding out hope that this experience does not discourage the man in the video from learning better practices with regards to cylinder watches.  His videos are very watchable, and I'd like them to improve.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

His videos are very watchable

His videos are extremely valuable for promoting the hobby of watch repair. As he makes watch repair look fun for all.