Hamilton 992 pocket watch, no signs of shellac?

[mbwatch]

I have been slowly working on a Hamilton 992 and trying my best to do it right as it will be a gift eventually. I am getting fantastic performance out of it after poising and the escapement is working exactly right.  But there is no shellac I can see. None on the roller jewel and none on the pallets. I only noticed this when I had the hairspring off for static poising. I cleaned the balance and fork by hand with naphtha months ago so I doubt I dissolved any shellac away back then.

But I know at some point in history impulse jewels could be friction fit. Is there any chance a 1920s Hamilton railroad movement should NOT have shellac on the roller jewel and pallets? I am prepared to add shellac but I don't look forward to removing the hairspring again. Everything feels firmly attached and in place already but I can't have this watch fall apart after it leaves my hands.

[rehajm]

In the few ads out there with a pic of the underside of the fork most look like yours but one shows shellac. Other Hamilton models like 912, 956 show stones without it. What does your check of the firmness of your settings tell you?

[mbwatch]

6 hours ago, rehajm said:

. What does your check of the firmness of your settings tell you?

I think it only tells me that I am unable to move the pallet stones by grasping them with tweezers and gently wiggling. On my other old watches where they were not secure, they moved readily out of flat with the fork but I hesitate to push harder. Same for the roller jewel, not movable by wiggle or push. The roller table is copper in color and has the look of a complete part manufactured and meant to be replaced as one.

I have also looked over the sale listings and noticed the same, a couple have obvious shellac blobs but most do not.

I am leaning toward this being their correct manufactured state, but will still hold out for a yes/no from someone who has worked on a lots of American watches.

[rehajm]

…

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by rehajm

[mbwatch]

4 minutes ago, rehajm said:

No shellac on the pallet stones…

Gorgeous watch! And that's a helpful confirmation thank you.

[CYCLOPS]

I would do both but you should at least put shellac on the roller [it doesn't have to be removed to do it with tool], it takes a beating and is easy to loose and hard to replace with correct size, the hairspring will come of easily....

some say if it ain't broke don't fix it though....

Edited August 26, 2024 by CYCLOPS

[mbwatch]

10 minutes ago, CYCLOPS said:

it takes a beating and is easy to loose and hard to replace with correct size, the hairspring will come of easily

I've been thinking the same and I probably will add shellac to the roller. The hairspring collet is very tight and difficult to get dressed screwdrivers under to remove. I have done it once before but really don't want to damage it. I should look for some hairspring levers.

I have a vintage roller table warmer of the spring clamp type, and the drawing on the box shows it in use with the hairspring still attached. But trying that on lower grade watches, I have never had the dexterity to get shellac onto it while the hairspring was sitting above.

[CYCLOPS]

if the hairspring has a slit in it some use a small screw driver to wedge and open slightly twist/lift off....be sure to notice/mark where the stud is to keep in beat

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

but you should at least put shellac on the roller

typically on these watches the roller jewel's friction and in no shellac is required. The pallet stones that I would be concerned about no shellac but I don't actually know whether they came without shellac originally. I don't feel like taking my 992 apart to see

22 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

f the hairspring has a slit in it some use a small screw driver to wedge and open slightly twist/lift off....be sure to notice/mark where the stud is to keep in beat

then never ever use a screwdriver. The tool is supposed to drop into the slot and just fit. so in other words the tool itself has a  very very long gradual taper and just drops in. Because anything that  is a wedge to open slightly risks damage. so yes drop in twist it will stay in place and gently pull up you can remove the hairspring collet without damage. Or just turn it without pulling to put the watch in beat

[mbwatch]

23 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

typically on these watches the roller jewel's friction and in no shellac is required

Thank you so much for the confirmation. The precision of the roller assembly did make it look like a factory friction install. I'm happy not to remove the hairspring again because it is now perfectly in beat.

I am going to keep researching the pallets. They also look very perfectly fit but I really don't want them to dislodge later. NAWCC may have info.

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

if the hairspring has a slit in it some use a small screw driver to wedge and open slightly twist/lift off....be sure to notice/mark where the stud is to keep in beat

.... The Collet that the hairspring is attached to, careful with opening this up, or you might need one of these to close it up again,  or worse break it half 

23 hours ago, mbwatch said:

should look for some hairspring levers.

These look kinda nice, i use two crafts knifes that i changed to a bevel on just one side but they're a little too big and sometimes still too thick at  0.4mm . Razor blades will get you down to 0.2 but you could also make a pair using an old mainspring that will get you to around 0.1mm and a width that wont need reducing.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Razor blades will get you down to 0.2 but you could also make a pair using an old mainspring that will get you to around 0.1mm and a width that wont need reducing.

It was such a good idea i had to make a pair

[mbwatch]

26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It was such a good idea i had to make a pair

And they're rigid enough for the task? Great idea.

Razor blades didn't occur to me and I had a pile of them right on the bench. Next time. I won't be attempting to open this collet. It's the most well built watch I have seen and I want to keep all its tolerances.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, mbwatch said:

And they're rigid enough for the task? Great idea.

I'll let you know as soon as the glue has set, just regular clear nail varnish to set them into a slot made in the pegwood . I'm hopeful that they will be rigid enough tbh i think the mainspring needs to be bigger, i had 20 mins to spare so thought I'd give them a go. If not then a cut down razor blade will be next to try. The mainspring formed its own curve to aid getting under the hairspring when i snapped them, that was a bonus.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

And they're rigid enough for the task? Great idea.

Razor blades didn't occur to me and I had a pile of them right on the bench. Next time. I won't be attempting to open this collet. It's the most well built watch I have seen and I want to keep all its tolerances.

Yep rigid enough for this job. These work a treat as mini levers, bending the mainspring to snap the pieces i wanted from the straight center portion of the spring gave them just the right amount of curl to fit over the balance wheel rim and under the hairspring and collet.  So the handles are 3mm pegwood which feels about right maybe a touch thicker might give them a better feel. A 0.2mm diamond disk cuts the 10mm slot in the pegwood to slide the spring into, fill the slot with clear nail varnish insert the pieces of spring, and run a bead of nail varnish around the slot and a little onto the spring, set them aside for a couple of hours to cure. When set add a bevel to the top edge only and remember to remove the burr created on the backside, using a fine diamond plate,  fine finish the edge with dental strips, i guess the xfine is around 3000 @HectorLooi might know what the grades of these are. Finally polish up with polinum on a sponge pad add a drop of oil to either the polishing pad or mix it in with the polinun,  job done . The spring measures 1.1mm x 0.7mm, i left around 8mm showing from the handle, its actually a tad long but works well, 5mm might feel a bit better.

[mbwatch]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

snap the pieces i wanted from the straight center portion of the spring

So you used a modern alloy spring with an S curve rather than old chonky carbon steel?

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

So you used a modern alloy spring with an S curve rather than old chonky carbon steel?

a modern spring has better elasticity, i picked the center portion of the spring to use. Dont try to cut these, they'll bugger up your pliers or grap your cutting wheel. Hold in straight pliers and bend them over then finish off using your fingers to bend fully over, nip tight and they will snap more or less where you want them to.

[nevenbekriev]

When the pallet stones are fixed without shellac, they are put to the bottom in the slots (just like the pallets on the pictures here). When shellac is needed, then the stones don't get to the bottom, otherwise regulation will not be possible. Of course, applying shellac will not do harm for sure.

[HectorLooi]

10 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i guess the xfine is around 3000 @HectorLooi might know what the grades of these are.

I have absolutely no idea. Most dentists are not very technically minded. As long as it gets the job done, we don't care. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

59 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I have absolutely no idea. Most dentists are not very technically minded. As long as it gets the job done, we don't care. 

No worries hector i guess the same applies here, if they file and leave a smooth finish thats all that matters .

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 8/27/2024 at 6:43 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

The spring measures 1.1mm x 0.7mm,

Just noticed this, it should be 0.07mm spring thickness.