Lubrication in relation to speed and torque

[Jon]

Hi guys,

I know this might stir up a hornets nest, especially talking about lubrication, but I really think this is a very subjective matter in watchmaking that needs explaining to anyone who is new to horology, or isn't quite sure to buy yet another lubricant because the service manual says that is what is needed. Higher end isochronistic movements tend to have a bigger variation of lubricants, but they are not always needed and equivalents can be used.

I'm not here to tell anyone what to use as a lubricant, I want to explain what I use and most importantly why and it has all to do with torque and speed of the arbor needing to be lubricated.

So, the slides will explain more than words, but the important thing to remember is you have high torque/low speed at the barrel and low torque/high speed at the balance cap jewel and staff, there will varying degrees of torque and speed as the force travels from the barrel to the escapement and if you know what that is, you can choose a lubricant to suit that particular torque and speed based on something specific.

I once trained a watchmaker of 13 years from a very well known watch company here in England (I won't say which one) and when I asked him what lubricant he used and where, he told me he uses the same as the guy on the next bench. When I asked him why, he told me "Because he uses them." So, he was basing his choices of lubricant based on the guy next to him, with little understanding of the subject.

When I started out it was confusing what to use and where and WHY! 

Also, taking into consideration the size and age of the movement will sometimes change the decision of what to use, where, but most importantly why, because your choice is based on some science and experience, rather than the guy sat next to you. That kind of science you only learn by listening to the guy down the pub tell you what is best! 

 

 

 

 

 

[rehajm]

Thanks Jon. Now I have 4 options for the 3rd wheel …

Edited September 8, 2024 by rehajm

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Jon said:

Hi guys,

I know this might stir up a hornets nest, especially talking about lubrication, but I really think this is a very subjective matter in watchmaking that needs explaining to anyone who is new to horology, or isn't quite sure to buy yet another lubricant because the service manual says that is what is needed. Higher end isochronistic movements tend to have a bigger variation of lubricants, but they are not always needed and equivalents can be used.

I'm not here to tell anyone what to use as a lubricant, I want to explain what I use and most importantly why and it has all to do with torque and speed of the arbor needing to be lubricated.

So, the slides will explain more than words, but the important thing to remember is you have high torque/low speed at the barrel and low torque/high speed at the balance cap jewel and staff, there will varying degrees of torque and speed as the force travels from the barrel to the escapement and if you know what that is, you can choose a lubricant to suit that particular torque and speed based on something specific.

I once trained a watchmaker of 13 years from a very well known watch company here in England (I won't say which one) and when I asked him what lubricant he used and where, he told me he uses the same as the guy on the next bench. When I asked him why, he told me "Because he uses them." So, he was basing his choices of lubricant based on the guy next to him, with little understanding of the subject.

When I started out it was confusing what to use and where and WHY! 

Also, taking into consideration the size and age of the movement will sometimes change the decision of what to use, where, but most importantly why, because your choice is based on some science and experience, rather than the guy sat next to you. That kind of science you only learn by listening to the guy down the pub tell you what is best! 

 

 

 

 

 

Good explanation for beginners,  i honestly thought this was common sense , common knowledge. Maybe its more overlooked than i thought.  I like to have some mineral oil somewhere to bind things over time rather than dry grind them to a halt. I chose D5 microgliss (1200 / 20°C ) as my heavy oil, the rest is hp750 ( figured that was a more mid-way viscosity between the D5 and 9020 ) , 9020 and 9010. Depending where folk live, hotter or colder climates maybe a step up or step down in viscosity will benefit performance. 

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

Thanks Jon. Now I have 4 options for the 3rd wheel …

Heres another Castrol GTX , worked wonders for my '69 Cooper S.

[Jon]

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

Thanks Jon. Now I have 4 options for the 3rd wheel …

Always willing to put another lubricant on the list...

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Good explanation for beginners,  i honestly thought this was common sense , common knowledge.

Thank you, I like to go through this with my first years for them to get an idea of what they want a particular lubricant for. I also tell them that technically you can lubricate the entire movement with D5 and 9010. And yes, D5 is never a bad idea to bind when it comes to the end of its life. i suppose that was the great thing about whale oil, is that it congealed and stopped the watch, which was the best thing that could happen. Nowadays, because of synthetic lubricants that doesn't happen. So, progress isn't always the best way. It probably is for the whales though! 

The thing with common sense is, I've found it's not very common. Maybe it's because I'm a Northerner living in the South 

I've seen students using files backwards and microscopes with no ring-light turned on (for 2 hours!). Now tell me how common is that kind of sense!...lol. It's all a learning curve. I remember when I became an engineer in my teens and the things I didn't know was frightening, but age, experience, knowledge and a sprinkle of wisdom helps that common sense come to life.

Incidentally it's the new day of term on Tuesday for my very enthusiastic first year students. All half dozen of them. One of them already has his own micro-brand watch company and wants to learn more about the mechanics of the movement and the different variations.

This is his brand. Check them out.  https://www.apiar.co.uk/

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

As they say size matters ( not relevant to the Mini Cooper ), ladies watches a lighter oil , pocketwatches a bit heavier oils, still boils down to torque, speed and pivot size. Something i also do if something has more sideshake that is liked and its not possible to realistically do anything modification wise about it for whatever reason ( low jewelled movement ?) , that extra space in the bearing hole can be taken up with a thicker oil than would otherwise be used. The normally used oil may leak down the pivot/arbor to the wheel or pinion whereas a thicker oil will hold its capillary action for longer.

[Jon]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

As they say size matters ( not relevant to the Mini Cooper ), ladies watches a lighter oil , pocketwatches a bit heavier oils, still boils down to torque, speed and pivot size. Something i also do if something has more sideshake that is liked and its not possible to realistically do anything modification wise about it for whatever reason ( low jewelled movement ?) , that extra space in the bearing hole can be taken up with a thicker oil than would otherwise be used. The normally used oil may leak down the pivot/arbor to the wheel or pinion whereas a thicker oil will hold its capillary action for longer.

I like that you obviously have a lot of common sense @Neverenoughwatches by what you have just written

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, Jon said:

Always willing to put another lubricant on the list...

Thank you, I like to go through this with my first years for them to get an idea of what they want a particular lubricant for. I also tell them that technically you can lubricate the entire movement with D5 and 9010. And yes, D5 is never a bad idea to bind when it comes to the end of its life. i suppose that was the great thing about whale oil, is that it congealed and stopped the watch, which was the best thing that could happen. Nowadays, because of synthetic lubricants that doesn't happen. So, progress isn't always the best way. It probably is for the whales though! 

The thing with common sense is, I've found it's not very common. Maybe it's because I'm a Northerner living in the South 

I've seen students using files backwards and microscopes with no ring-light turned on (for 2 hours!). Now tell me how common is that kind of sense!...lol. It's all a learning curve. I remember when I became an engineer in my teens and the things I didn't know was frightening, but age, experience, knowledge and a sprinkle of wisdom helps that common sense come to life.

Incidentally it's the new day of term on Tuesday for my very enthusiastic first year students. All half dozen of them. One of them already has his own micro-brand watch company and wants to learn more about the mechanics of the movement and the different variations.

This is his brand. Check them out.  https://www.apiar.co.uk/

 

 

I envy them Jon wish i had done something like this years ago. I'm actively thinking about a career change, construction is tearing my body apart week by week. University is one of my options, we have a decent Uni. here in Hull, some subjects i am drawn to, but when you really want to do something you just have to go for it. Birmingham I believe is the last horology school in the UK......its in my thoughts not seriously but its there, below that is the DLCs at the BHI this is more doable at my age. 

On a different note , pin gauges arrived today. Evri driver left them on my doorstep on a busy road for all and sundry to view for four hours, I'm pleased they were still there.  For some unknown reason the AliExpress worker entrusted to detail my box saw fit to swap out the 0.99mm for an extra  0.17mm....... ...........whatevveerr.

[Nucejoe]

 How come , the effect of pallets constant drop lock impact on escape wheel and therefrom to  escape pivot  is ignored?   If lock drop is strong enough to be audible,  its strong enough to splash around oil everytime pallets hits a  escape teeth 

Presumably  such impact would splash some oil out of the jewel- pivot setting. Perhaps cap stones keep the oil in the setting.

If I being obsessive, just ignore me.   

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

33 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 How come , the effect of pallets constant drop lock impact on escape wheel and therefrom to  escape pivot  is ignored?   If lock drop is strong enough to be audible,  its strong enough to splash around oil everytime pallets hits a  escape teeth 

Presumably  such impact would splash some oil out of the jewel- pivot setting. Perhaps cap stones keep the oil in the setting.

If I being obsessive, just ignore me.   

 

 

Are you asking why shockwaves from pallet stones hitting escape teeth dont shake loose oil from their capillary hold between the pivot and jewel ?

[Nucejoe]

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you asking why shockwaves from pallet stones hitting escape teeth dont shake loose oil from their capillary hold between the pivot and jewel ?

Yes exactly. 

Does this actually happen?  

No matter how small the amount shaken loose by each hit , it can expectedly add up when you consider its does it 28800 times , and over years.

Is the amount of oil thats  shaken loose too small to be taken into account?  

 

[HectorLooi]

46 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 How come , the effect of pallets constant drop lock impact on escape wheel and therefrom to  escape pivot  is ignored?   If lock drop is strong enough to be audible,  its strong enough to splash around oil everytime pallets hits a  escape teeth 

Presumably  such impact would splash some oil out of the jewel- pivot setting. Perhaps cap stones keep the oil in the setting.

If I being obsessive, just ignore me.   

 

 

Who says pallet jewel grease doesn't get splashed around?

I'm sure you've seen sticky hairsprings. I used to wonder where the oil was coming from. I couldn't believe that oil was dripping out of the capstones and getting onto the hairsprings.

When I started oiling pallet jewels with 9415, like any beginner, I put too much and soon I noticed the hairspring gumming up. I'm sure the culprit was the 9415.

[Nucejoe]

Just now, HectorLooi said:

Who says pallet jewel grease doesn't get splashed around?

I thought if it did, we would have discussed it.

Good point., never thought where greasy  hairsprings source oil from.

 

Edited September 8, 2024 by Nucejoe
Typo

[HectorLooi]

I'm sure when you came across a sticky hairspring, it wasn't easy to wash off. If it were 9010, that should rinse off easily. But sticky hairsprings can take several rinses to get it clean.

What do you guys think?

[Nucejoe]

Just now, HectorLooi said:

What do you guys think?

I don't. 

     

Work on watches just to avoid thinking.

[HectorLooi]

Anyway, when the escape tooth unlock and bangs into the pallet jewel, it lands on the locking surface and not on the impulse surface where the grease it. But if too much grease is applied until it spills over to the locking surface, then splashes can occur.

Ever wondered why the grease is applied to the exit jewel and not the entry?

I think it's to avoid flicking off the grease and onto the hairspring. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes exactly. 

Does this actually happen?  

No matter how small the amount shaken loose by each hit , it can expectedly add up when you consider its does it 28800 times , and over years.

Is the amount of oil thats  shaken loose too small to be taken into account?  

 

Maybe it does Joe, maybe more so on hi-beaters. Correct escape wheel sideshake is most important for more reasons than other wheels this is another one to add to the list. Re-servicing personal collections will probably show due to speed and impacts that this wheel's jewel hole is always dry before others are.  

[Nucejoe]

Just now, HectorLooi said:

But if too much grease is applied until it spills over to the locking surface, then splashes can occur.

Thanks, I try not to make a splash any more.